Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt01295)

I would also like to view all the manuscripts hidden in the papacy basement. Forgive my cynicism, but Galileo's retractment didn't change his opinion on truth.  I believe the papacy heirarchy, past and present know the truth and are still covering up to keep the sheeple entranced.



Cass
 
carlosaveline cardoso aveline <carlosaveline@hotmail.com> wrote: 
Dear Cass,

The Pope John Paul II made public apologies as to Rome's persecution against 
Jews in the Second World War; it's persecution against indigenous peoples in 
South America; its mistakes against the Ortodox Church; half an apology over 
the "Un-Holy Inquisition" which tortured and killed thousands of people over 
several centuries --  on a few other issues, perhaps.

Of course this is absolutely far from enough.

I only mention that because it is the first time that I see any religious 
and dogmatic institution to make any public apologies.  They use to make 
believe they are all infallible. This is a nice example to be followed by 
others.

For instance, I would like to see Adyar TS, our own small theosophical 
Vatican, honestly saying:

*Sorry, we made a persecution against W. Judge in the 1890s and he was 
innocent".

*Sorry, we recently adopted the Coulomb and Soloviof lies in our books, we 
will not go on with that".

*Sorry, we declared Krishnamurti was the vehicle for the Lord Christ and he 
would reform the world and extinguish all wars in the 20th century, we were 
wrong."

It would be too little?

Yes, it would be too little.

Yet a long walk starts with its first actual steps.


Best regards,  Carlos.




>From: Cass Silva 
>Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: Theos-World CASS: Acknowledging the Others'  Relevancy
>Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:54:09 -0800 (PST)
>
>Well strike one off the list, another 100 to go.  My point was that the 
>Holy Roman Catholic Church considers itself the one true faith.  Therefore 
>discounting all protestant organizations. As the Apex of Christianity, 
>Greek Orthodox teachings and Protestant Teachings are irrelevant to the 
>functioning of Catholicism.  That they chat about it and apologize for it, 
>doesn't mean that the Papacy is willing to change its ideas on its 
>christian beliefs.  If so, there would only be ONE HOLY BIBLE and not 64 
>editions.
>
>Cass
>
>carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
>
>Cass,
>
>If the question was NOT  a metaphor, they split some 10 centuries ago.
>A few years ago, Pope John Paul II publically apologized for the Vatican
>mistakes with regard to Ortodox Christians.
>
>If the question WAS a metaphor,  all Churches, Religions,  Philosophies and
>Sciences  interact among themselves,  and therefore are actually relevant 
>to
>each other, whether they acknowledge this or not.
>
>Theosophy suggests mutual acknowledgement is both stimulating and fun.
>
>Carlos.
>
> >From: Cass Silva
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Imagining Adyar TS as Irrelevant?
> >Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:19:54 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Carlos
> >Is the Greek Orthodox Church relevant to the Papacy?
> >Cass
> >
> >carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
> >
> >Dear Friends,
> >
> >
> >Krsanna says (see below):
> >
> >"I believe that Adyar is irrelevant to the degree it is not capable of
> >doing
> >the work of theosophy, to unify by showing that all esoteric knowledge
> >stems
> >from one common tree, and this knowledge has become exoteric.  
>Contemporary
> >Theosophists who hide in the shadow history or some vague future, 25,000
> >years from now, are equally incapable of doing the work of theosophy in 
>the
> >contemporary world and, in this way, irrelevant to the degree they fail 
>to
> >deal with conditions of the world as it now exists in exoteric and 
>esoteric
> >terms."
> >
> >
> >I say:
> >
> >1) No one is hiding in the future.  The practical reason for looking 
>things
> >in a comparatively long term
> >is that it gives us a much better perspective of reality as we face short
> >term challenges. Time, and space, in the SD,  is much wider that 25,000
> >years and our planet Earth.
> >
> >2) Who is the "spiritual authority" to judge that Adyar is "irrelevant"?
> >Is
> >Krsanna modestly offering herself to such a position?  Adyar is part of 
>the
> >theosophical movement; it is far from being  the smallest of its parts; 
>it
> >has many sincere students, including undrieds of  HPB students;  all of 
>the
> >movement is "relevant" in the long run.
> >
> >3) It is beautiful to acknowledge our own relative irrelevancy  in the
> >greater scheme of things; it is not correct or accurate to judge OTHERS 
>as
> >irrelevant.
> >
> >4) Mistakes are NEVER irrelevant as they always hide important lessons.
> >Adyar TS's mistakes are relevant and identifying them will give important
> >lessons not only to its own members, but to all the movement.
> >
> >Actual differences between Adyar TS and other theosophical organizations
> >can
> >be much smaller than some of us think.
> >
> >There is a difference between fighting Adyar and fighting Adyar's
> >illusions. These illusions are, in a way, the illusions of the movement 
>as
> >a
> >whole.
> >
> >Adyar TS members are our brothers and sisters.  Sometimes, family
> >relationships are uneasy and difficult,  but frank discussions can help.
> >
> >Brothers and sisters are always relevant to each other.
> >
> >Best regards, Carlos.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "TimeStar"
> > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Theos-World HPB's resignation from Adyar and its irrelevancy
> > >Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 04:01:16 -0700
> > >
> > >Dear nhcareta:
> > >
> > >I had never seen the letter in which HPB resigned from the Adyar TS,
> >which
> > >was later ordered to be produced in court by a judge in 1929.  Thank 
>you
> > >for
> > >bringing it to the attention of this group.  Adyar has never published
> >the
> > >letter in its entirety, except with all derogatory comments about Adyar
> > >removed?
> > >
> > >I believe that Adyar is irrelevant to the degree it is not capable of
> >doing
> > >the work of theosophy, to unify by showing that all esoteric knowledge
> > >stems
> > >from one common tree, and this knowledge has become exoteric.
> >Contemporary
> > >Theosophists who hide in the shadow history or some vague future, 
>25,000
> > >years from now, are equally incapable of doing the work of theosophy in
> >the
> > >contemporary world and, in this way, irrelevant to the degree they fail
> >to
> > >deal with conditions of the world as it now exists in exoteric and
> >esoteric
> > >terms.
> > >
> > >HPB used newspapers, magazines, books, and contemporary events of her 
>day
> > >to
> > >illustrate the principles she taught.  She was dynamic and present in 
>the
> > >world.
> > >
> > >All individuals of this planet and the developing life forms are one,
> > >including mineral, plant and animal.  Saying that Theosophical 
>Societies
> > >and
> > >Theosophists are one on the inner plane without including all life of 
>the
> > >planet constitutes a new caste system of theosophical interests.
> > >
> > >In this oneness of all life on earth, Adyar has failed the theosophical
> > >mission and HPB resigned from it.  She abolished the authority of the
> > >parent
> > >society declaring all lodges autonomous.  Her resignation, it seems,
> > >prophesied the future of Theosophy:  "Mankind - the majority at any 
>rate
> >-
> > >hates to think for itself. It resents as an insult the humblest
> >invitation
> > >to step for a moment outside the old well-beaten track, and, judging 
>for
> > >itself, to enter into a new path in some fresh direction."
> > >
> > >Theosophists and their societies are as mired in dogma as any other
> > >religion
> > >has ever been.  They have become the new "dead letter."
> > >
> > >Again, thank you for this post.
> > >
> > >Best regards,
> > >Krsanna Duran
> > >
> > >nhcareyta  wrote:
> > >In light of recent postings, this article written in 1991 and
> >subsequently
> > >published in The Canadian Theosophist might be of interest. It was sent
> >to
> > >me whilst involved in personal correspondence with the author during my
> > >early stages of disenthrallment and disillusionment with the Adyar T.S.
> > >
> > >IN MEMORY OF H P. BLAVATSKY
> > >BY D. J. BUXEY
> > >"We cannot exaggerate the debt we owe to H.P.B. She brought us the
> > >Light...and we can best carry on her work by remembering the gratitude
> >that
> > >we owe her.
> > >Dr. Annie Besant.
> > >H.P.B. resigned ("in utter disgust." as she called it) from the
> > >Theosophical
> > >Society on the New Day of Spring, March 21, 1985.  She ended her words 
>on
> > >the matter with:
> > >"I leave with, one and all, to every one of my friends and 
>sympathizers,
> >my
> > >loving farewell. I would implore you all to be true to the Society 
>(this
> > >essay is being written only " to be true to the Society", as she puts 
>it.
> >-
> > >D.J.B.) and not to permit it to be over-thrown by the enemy.
> > >Fraternally and ever yours - in life or death.
> > >H.P. Blavatsky.
> > >
> > >Adyar was happy to see her go. As she put it later, there was hatred 
>from
> > >every department in Adyar towards her.
> > >Why did the Council of the T.S. accept her resignation? Perhaps, as she
> >put
> > >it, (I am quoting from The Canadian Theosophist. Sept.-Oct.  1982, 
>p.80.
> > >Vol.63, No. 4):
> > >"Mankind - the majority at any rate - hates to think for itself. It
> >resents
> > >as an insult the humblest invitation to step for a moment outside the 
>old
> > >well-beaten track, and, judging for itself, to enter into a new path in
> > >some
> > >fresh direction."
> > >This essay is being written, in her memory, precisely for the T.S.  to
> >move
> > >"in some fresh direction" in the second century of its existence.  As I
> >was
> > >writing my paper for the International Conference, as invited, and came
> >to
> > >this point, the biographer of H.P.B., my neighbor, came in I asked him
> >why
> > >he ended his book on H.P.B. with her resignation and did not go 
>further.
> > >His
> > >answer shook me. He said, as invited, he speaks to the lodges, but 
>never
> > >became a member - (this surprised me) - "as so sordid is the history of
> >the
> > >T.S. that I want no part of it."
> > >I then remonstrated. "You are then presenting only part of the 
>picture."
> > >His reply was, "Be it so. but I cannot wash dirty linen in public." 
>After
> > >her resignation, H.P.B. then left India on March 30, 1885, against her
> >will
> > >as she put it later to friends. As she saw the shores of her beloved
> >India
> > >recede, she wept like a baby. She was carried on board ship without a
> > >change
> > >of clothes, and, in her own words, "...indecent haste."
> > >And now, with her out of the way Adyar started playing games. It 
>started
> > >"manufacturing" Masters in their factory, - not merely manufacture, but
> > >commercializing and selling "Them" also, much as the Christian
> >missionaries
> > >sell Jesus - their American TV. programs earn at least a 100 million
> > >dollars.  In the last bulletin of Convention No. 4 that a friend sent 
>to
> >me
> > >from Adyar, it mentioned that a property in Holland reverted to Adyar.
> >But
> > >I
> > >happened to read Dr. Besant's Watch Tower notes in The Theosophist of 
>how
> > >the property was made to be donated. The donor said that she was made a
> > >member or pupil of the Great White Brotherhood (Annie Besant's eyes
> >widened
> > >at this stage) and she was put on probation by the Master K.H. This was
> > >Bishop Wedgwood's mischief - when I went to see him in Camberley in 
>1950
> >he
> > >had already gone mad (from tertiary syphilis. -Ed.). Dr. Besant said 
>that
> > >she had never heard of such a thing (that the property was being
> >donated),
> > >-
> > >all sorts of things happened behind her back - but she was accepting 
>the
> > >property nevertheless. This is just an example to illustrate the point.
> >The
> > >property, Huizen has now come to belong to Adyar.
> > >H.P. Blavatsky now declared:
> > >a.   I cannot now live at Headquarters from which the Masters and Their
> > >Spirit are virtually banished.
> > >
> > >b. The Presence of Their portraits will not help. They are a dead 
>letter.
> > >(These portraits are now in the E.S. Shrine Room.)
> > >
> > >c.  No advice of mine on occult lines seems likely to be accepted.
> > >
> > >d. The fact of my relations with the Masters is doubted, even totally
> > >denied
> > >by some, and I myself having no right to the Headquarters, what reason 
>is
> > >there, therefore, for me to live at Adyar?
> > >
> > >This letter has been kept secret from Adyarites to this day. Only when 
>a
> > >Parsee judge objected was it partially repeated in The Theosophist of
> >1929.
> > >By then Annie Besant was losing her memory (she asked Krishnamurti if
> >they
> > >had ever met!), and was nearly dying, so they (Adyar officials) felt it
> >was
> > >of no harm then. But all derogatory references to Adyar, even until 
>then
> > >(1929) were removed.  After H.P. Blavatsky's departure from Adyar, the
> > >Masters became "alive" at the Adyar Convention.  Who was to stop them? 
>A
> > >member, Franz Hartman, astonished at all these goings on, wrote to 
>H.P.B.
> > >and I quote from her very long letter of April 1885:
> > >"As to ... that portion of your letter where you speak of the "army"  
>of
> > >the
> > >deluded (viz. T.S. members at the Convention) and the "imaginary"
> >Mahatmas
> > >of Olcott - you are absolutely and sadly right". (Note "sadly right" 
>and
> > >"imaginary Mahatmas, Olcott's Old Diary Leaves is pure fantasy and
> > >imagination - D.J.B.)  "Have I not seen the thing for nearly 8 years?
> >Have
> > >I
> > >not struggled and fought against Olcott's ardent and gushing 
>imagination
> > >and
> > >tried to stop him every day of my life?" (Note her words, "his gushing
> > >imagination" on Masters. - DJ.B.)   "Was he not told by me that if he 
>did
> > >not see the Masters in their true light and did not cease speaking and
> > >inflaming people's imagination, that he would be held responsible for 
>all
> > >the evil the Society might come to?" ("Note the words, "inflaming
> >people's
> > >imagination" by tall stories about Masters. - D.J.B.)
> > >Who started inventing all this? To the German theosophist, (Hartman)
> >H.P.B.
> > >explained:
> > >"Then came Damodar and several other fanatics (note this word, - 
>D.J.B.)
> > >calling them "Mahatmas" and little by little, the Adepts were 
>transformed
> > >into Gods on earth.  They...were becoming with every day more legendary
> >and
> > >miraculous.  The idea that Masters were mortal men never crossed 
>anyone's
> > >mind, though They wrote themselves repeatedly" Why did she not stop all
> > >this? As she put it at the end:
> > >"I was always occupied with The Theosophist, and ever in my room.  All
> >were
> > >left to Olcott and Damodar, two fanatics." (The word "fanatics" appears
> > >again. D.J.B.) "How I protested and tried to swim against the current,
> >only
> > >Mr. Sinnett knows, and the Masters."
> > >The Masters (made, as H.P.B. says, omniscient, omnipotent and
> >omnipresent)
> > >leave the Society. We will quote only three phrases of what the Masters
> > >said, from Their numerous statements:
> > >1. 'The Society has liberated itself from our grasp and influence, and 
>we
> > >have let it go."
> > >2. "This policy (Olcott's) has done more harm to the spirit of the
> >Society
> > >than several Coulombs can do." (What a strong and damaging statement to
> > >make, "more than what several Coulombs can do." - DJB.)
> > >3. "He (Olcott) saved his body (organization )but the T.S. is now a
> > >soulless
> > >corpse." (Or, he saved the body but killed the soul. - D.J.B)
> > >
> > >Now with the Master K.H. saying "the T.S, has failed", H.P.B. is asked 
>to
> > >start a new movement. Her words:
> > >"Acting under the Master's orders. I began a new movement in the West 
>on
> > >the
> > >original lines ... I founded (the magazine) Lucifer." Now the Lucifer 
>was
> > >founded to attack The Theosophist, otherwise why two magazines? How 
>else
> > >would her voice be heard? How else could she crusade, a brave and lone
> > >warrior against falsehood? With this we must slowly end her story.
> > >History continues, as the story of others begins, and it is with her
> >memory
> > >that we are more concerned about here. Just as Krishnamurti told me 
>many
> >a
> > >time, once with tears in his eyes, how he was thrown out of Adyar at a
> > >moment's notice (he came to continue H.P.B.'s work), just as I saw, 
>year
> > >after year, the pain in his eyes and words, we find from her letters 
>the
> > >pain coming, as in this sentence:
> > >"...those for whom I had the deepest affection, regarding them as a
> >mother
> > >would her own sons ... have turned against me..." At this point we must
> > >stop; her story is over. What about her successor? His story would 
>start.
> > >H.P.B. had told Wm. Q. Judge in July 1886 (and a number of times
> > >thereafter), "Take my place, Judge, ...  replace me at Adyar."
> > >But Annie Besant played politics. "Politics" means fighting for power.
> >She
> > >need not have, for Judge was to die in a year, but she did not know 
>this.
> > >She would have come to power in any case, and later confessed to many
> > >people, such as B.P. Wadia that she was misled.  An Australian, Mouni
> > >Sadhu,
> > >in his In Days of Great Peace, says on p. 49:
> > >"On my enquiry late in 1926, Mrs. Besant wrote to me:
> > >'It is true that after the death of Col. Olcott in 1907, the Masters
> > >withdrew their direct guidance of the T.S.' " Besant died 
>broken-hearted,
> > >and as Krishnamurti was to tell me and others later, she nevertheless 
>was
> > >sincere, but the others were not.  Olcott also realized this. In his
> > >biography, Hammer on the Mountain a conversation appears on page 299-
> >300:
> > >Olcott - "I have learned more, particularly as regards Judge -
> > >"Yes, Henry," I (Laura Langford - Holloway) said eagerly,
> > >Olcott - "I know now and it will comfort you to hear it, that I wronged
> > >Judge - not willfully or in malice; nevertheless I have done this and I
> > >regret it."
> > >"God bless you", I said and then thanked him for his brave recantation.
> > >H.P.B. tells her Masters she wants to start a new movement in her 
>beloved
> > >India, the home of the Mahatmas, "of whom every Hindu school boy 
>knows".
> > >(Mahatmas being true sanyasins etc.), but not in Europe.  Master K.H.
> >asks
> > >her to go to pondicherry, but Adyar threatens arrest (as its existence 
>is
> > >at
> > >stake), and in utter disgust, Master K.H.  asks Aurobindo to go to
> > >Pondicherry. Was there any way to save the situation then? Yes, by
> > >recalling
> > >her, as the Master told her "most plainly":
> > >"Master told me most plainly that if the Society did not recall me 
>before
> > >1886 (which it did not - D.J.B.) They would retire entirely from any
> > >connection with it, signify it to the London Lodge and other European 
>and
> > >American Societies, and break every connection with every member."
> > >Conclusion:
> > >H.P.B. asks, "Whom do I blame?" (for this mess). She answers, 
>"Certainly
> > >not
> > >I."
> > >Obviously blame goes to Olcott, as the Masters pinned the blame on him,
> >but
> > >she is so noble, so chivalrous, that she puts it this way, "Loaded and
> > >heavy
> > >is his karma, poor man...", but she does not blame him. Then whom? "To
> > >human
> > >nature, demanding money." - All this was done for money - for
> >organization,
> > >not teachings. So far as teachings were concerned, she had said, as J.
> > >Krishnamurti had told in practically the same words:
> > >"I saw with terror and anger the false track they (the T.S.) were all
> > >pursuing."
> > >When Judge started his magazine The Path, she had said, so far as the
> > >teachings are concerned:
> > >"Bravo! Judge, ... your Path outclasses my Lucifer any day." While for
> > >Adyar
> > >she said, "Adyar is the laughing-stock of the theosophists themselves,
> >let
> > >alone their enemies.
> > >Even Swami Vivekananda had said, "God knows what happened. But Judge 
>was
> > >the
> > >best representative the theosophists ever had."
> > >Post Mortem
> > >Is there a post mortem? Possibly yes.
> > >Annie Besant died. She possibly saw things in a better light, and as
> > >reported in The Theosophist Dec.1941. P.232, told Arundale. "The Lodges

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