Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt01294)

Cass

carlosaveline cardoso aveline <carlosaveline@hotmail.com> wrote:=20

Cass,


I can't see any difference of views in what we both say. Can  you?

Rome can THINK others are irrelevant. This is only a  result of its own=20
authoritarianism.

In the long run, every particle of the universe -- including the particles=
=20
of 'Churchianity' -- interact with each other and are therefore mutually=20
RELEVANT.

When I say something is IN-SIGNIFICANT,  or MEANING-LESS to me,  I am only=
=20
confessing that I cannot SEE its SIGNIFICANCE and MEANING in the present=20
moment. I may see that tomorrow.

"Stones can deliver sermons".  Everything is meaningful in the universe.


Best regards,  Carlos.


>From: Cass Silva=20
>Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: Theos-World CASS: Acknowledging the Others'  Relevancy
>Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:54:09 -0800 (PST)
>
>Well strike one off the list, another 100 to go.  My point was that the=20
>Holy Roman Catholic Church considers itself the one true faith.  Therefore=
=20
>discounting all protestant organizations. As the Apex of Christianity,=20
>Greek Orthodox teachings and Protestant Teachings are irrelevant to the=20
>functioning of Catholicism.  That they chat about it and apologize for it,=
=20
>doesn't mean that the Papacy is willing to change its ideas on its=20
>christian beliefs.  If so, there would only be ONE HOLY BIBLE and not 64=20
>editions.
>
>Cass
>
>carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
>
>Cass,
>
>If the question was NOT  a metaphor, they split some 10 centuries ago.
>A few years ago, Pope John Paul II publically apologized for the Vatican
>mistakes with regard to Ortodox Christians.
>
>If the question WAS a metaphor,  all Churches, Religions,  Philosophies an=
d
>Sciences  interact among themselves,  and therefore are actually relevant=
=20
>to
>each other, whether they acknowledge this or not.
>
>Theosophy suggests mutual acknowledgement is both stimulating and fun.
>
>Carlos.
>
> >From: Cass Silva
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Imagining Adyar TS as Irrelevant?
> >Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:19:54 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Carlos
> >Is the Greek Orthodox Church relevant to the Papacy?
> >Cass
> >
> >carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
> >
> >Dear Friends,
> >
> >
> >Krsanna says (see below):
> >
> >"I believe that Adyar is irrelevant to the degree it is not capable of
> >doing
> >the work of theosophy, to unify by showing that all esoteric knowledge
> >stems
> >from one common tree, and this knowledge has become exoteric.=20=20
>Contemporary
> >Theosophists who hide in the shadow history or some vague future, 25,000
> >years from now, are equally incapable of doing the work of theosophy in=
=20
>the
> >contemporary world and, in this way, irrelevant to the degree they fail=
=20
>to
> >deal with conditions of the world as it now exists in exoteric and=20
>esoteric
> >terms."
> >
> >
> >I say:
> >
> >1) No one is hiding in the future.  The practical reason for looking=20
>things
> >in a comparatively long term
> >is that it gives us a much better perspective of reality as we face shor=
t
> >term challenges. Time, and space, in the SD,  is much wider that 25,000
> >years and our planet Earth.
> >
> >2) Who is the "spiritual authority" to judge that Adyar is "irrelevant"?
> >Is
> >Krsanna modestly offering herself to such a position?  Adyar is part of=
=20
>the
> >theosophical movement; it is far from being  the smallest of its parts;=
=20
>it
> >has many sincere students, including undrieds of  HPB students;  all of=
=20
>the
> >movement is "relevant" in the long run.
> >
> >3) It is beautiful to acknowledge our own relative irrelevancy  in the
> >greater scheme of things; it is not correct or accurate to judge OTHERS=
=20
>as
> >irrelevant.
> >
> >4) Mistakes are NEVER irrelevant as they always hide important lessons.
> >Adyar TS's mistakes are relevant and identifying them will give importan=
t
> >lessons not only to its own members, but to all the movement.
> >
> >Actual differences between Adyar TS and other theosophical organizations
> >can
> >be much smaller than some of us think.
> >
> >There is a difference between fighting Adyar and fighting Adyar's
> >illusions. These illusions are, in a way, the illusions of the movement=
=20
>as
> >a
> >whole.
> >
> >Adyar TS members are our brothers and sisters.  Sometimes, family
> >relationships are uneasy and difficult,  but frank discussions can help.
> >
> >Brothers and sisters are always relevant to each other.
> >
> >Best regards, Carlos.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "TimeStar"
> > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Theos-World HPB's resignation from Adyar and its irrelevancy
> > >Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 04:01:16 -0700
> > >
> > >Dear nhcareta:
> > >
> > >I had never seen the letter in which HPB resigned from the Adyar TS,
> >which
> > >was later ordered to be produced in court by a judge in 1929.  Thank=20
>you
> > >for
> > >bringing it to the attention of this group.  Adyar has never published
> >the
> > >letter in its entirety, except with all derogatory comments about Adya=
r
> > >removed?
> > >
> > >I believe that Adyar is irrelevant to the degree it is not capable of
> >doing
> > >the work of theosophy, to unify by showing that all esoteric knowledge
> > >stems
> > >from one common tree, and this knowledge has become exoteric.
> >Contemporary
> > >Theosophists who hide in the shadow history or some vague future,=20
>25,000
> > >years from now, are equally incapable of doing the work of theosophy i=
n
> >the
> > >contemporary world and, in this way, irrelevant to the degree they fai=
l
> >to
> > >deal with conditions of the world as it now exists in exoteric and
> >esoteric
> > >terms.
> > >
> > >HPB used newspapers, magazines, books, and contemporary events of her=
=20
>day
> > >to
> > >illustrate the principles she taught.  She was dynamic and present in=
=20
>the
> > >world.
> > >
> > >All individuals of this planet and the developing life forms are one,
> > >including mineral, plant and animal.  Saying that Theosophical=20
>Societies
> > >and
> > >Theosophists are one on the inner plane without including all life of=
=20
>the
> > >planet constitutes a new caste system of theosophical interests.
> > >
> > >In this oneness of all life on earth, Adyar has failed the theosophica=
l
> > >mission and HPB resigned from it.  She abolished the authority of the
> > >parent
> > >society declaring all lodges autonomous.  Her resignation, it seems,
> > >prophesied the future of Theosophy:  "Mankind - the majority at any=20
>rate
> >-
> > >hates to think for itself. It resents as an insult the humblest
> >invitation
> > >to step for a moment outside the old well-beaten track, and, judging=20
>for
> > >itself, to enter into a new path in some fresh direction."
> > >
> > >Theosophists and their societies are as mired in dogma as any other
> > >religion
> > >has ever been.  They have become the new "dead letter."
> > >
> > >Again, thank you for this post.
> > >
> > >Best regards,
> > >Krsanna Duran
> > >
> > >nhcareyta  wrote:
> > >In light of recent postings, this article written in 1991 and
> >subsequently
> > >published in The Canadian Theosophist might be of interest. It was sen=
t
> >to
> > >me whilst involved in personal correspondence with the author during m=
y
> > >early stages of disenthrallment and disillusionment with the Adyar T.S=
.
> > >
> > >IN MEMORY OF H P. BLAVATSKY
> > >BY D. J. BUXEY
> > >"We cannot exaggerate the debt we owe to H.P.B. She brought us the
> > >Light...and we can best carry on her work by remembering the gratitude
> >that
> > >we owe her.
> > >Dr. Annie Besant.
> > >H.P.B. resigned ("in utter disgust." as she called it) from the
> > >Theosophical
> > >Society on the New Day of Spring, March 21, 1985.  She ended her words=
=20
>on
> > >the matter with:
> > >"I leave with, one and all, to every one of my friends and=20
>sympathizers,
> >my
> > >loving farewell. I would implore you all to be true to the Society=20
>(this
> > >essay is being written only " to be true to the Society", as she puts=
=20
>it.
> >-
> > >D.J.B.) and not to permit it to be over-thrown by the enemy.
> > >Fraternally and ever yours - in life or death.
> > >H.P. Blavatsky.
> > >
> > >Adyar was happy to see her go. As she put it later, there was hatred=20
>from
> > >every department in Adyar towards her.
> > >Why did the Council of the T.S. accept her resignation? Perhaps, as sh=
e
> >put
> > >it, (I am quoting from The Canadian Theosophist. Sept.-Oct.  1982,=20
>p.80.
> > >Vol.63, No. 4):
> > >"Mankind - the majority at any rate - hates to think for itself. It
> >resents
> > >as an insult the humblest invitation to step for a moment outside the=
=20
>old
> > >well-beaten track, and, judging for itself, to enter into a new path i=
n
> > >some
> > >fresh direction."
> > >This essay is being written, in her memory, precisely for the T.S.  to
> >move
> > >"in some fresh direction" in the second century of its existence.  As =
I
> >was
> > >writing my paper for the International Conference, as invited, and cam=
e
> >to
> > >this point, the biographer of H.P.B., my neighbor, came in I asked him
> >why
> > >he ended his book on H.P.B. with her resignation and did not go=20
>further.
> > >His
> > >answer shook me. He said, as invited, he speaks to the lodges, but=20
>never
> > >became a member - (this surprised me) - "as so sordid is the history o=
f
> >the
> > >T.S. that I want no part of it."
> > >I then remonstrated. "You are then presenting only part of the=20
>picture."
> > >His reply was, "Be it so. but I cannot wash dirty linen in public."=20
>After
> > >her resignation, H.P.B. then left India on March 30, 1885, against her
> >will
> > >as she put it later to friends. As she saw the shores of her beloved
> >India
> > >recede, she wept like a baby. She was carried on board ship without a
> > >change
> > >of clothes, and, in her own words, "...indecent haste."
> > >And now, with her out of the way Adyar started playing games. It=20
>started
> > >"manufacturing" Masters in their factory, - not merely manufacture, bu=
t
> > >commercializing and selling "Them" also, much as the Christian
> >missionaries
> > >sell Jesus - their American TV. programs earn at least a 100 million
> > >dollars.  In the last bulletin of Convention No. 4 that a friend sent=
=20
>to
> >me
> > >from Adyar, it mentioned that a property in Holland reverted to Adyar.
> >But
> > >I
> > >happened to read Dr. Besant's Watch Tower notes in The Theosophist of=
=20
>how
> > >the property was made to be donated. The donor said that she was made =
a
> > >member or pupil of the Great White Brotherhood (Annie Besant's eyes
> >widened
> > >at this stage) and she was put on probation by the Master K.H. This wa=
s
> > >Bishop Wedgwood's mischief - when I went to see him in Camberley in=20
>1950
> >he
> > >had already gone mad (from tertiary syphilis. -Ed.). Dr. Besant said=20
>that
> > >she had never heard of such a thing (that the property was being
> >donated),
> > >-
> > >all sorts of things happened behind her back - but she was accepting=20
>the
> > >property nevertheless. This is just an example to illustrate the point=
.
> >The
> > >property, Huizen has now come to belong to Adyar.
> > >H.P. Blavatsky now declared:
> > >a.   I cannot now live at Headquarters from which the Masters and Thei=
r
> > >Spirit are virtually banished.
> > >
> > >b. The Presence of Their portraits will not help. They are a dead=20
>letter.
> > >(These portraits are now in the E.S. Shrine Room.)
> > >
> > >c.  No advice of mine on occult lines seems likely to be accepted.
> > >
> > >d. The fact of my relations with the Masters is doubted, even totally
> > >denied
> > >by some, and I myself having no right to the Headquarters, what reason=
=20
>is
> > >there, therefore, for me to live at Adyar?
> > >
> > >This letter has been kept secret from Adyarites to this day. Only when=
=20
>a
> > >Parsee judge objected was it partially repeated in The Theosophist of
> >1929.
> > >By then Annie Besant was losing her memory (she asked Krishnamurti if
> >they
> > >had ever met!), and was nearly dying, so they (Adyar officials) felt i=
t
> >was
> > >of no harm then. But all derogatory references to Adyar, even until=20
>then
> > >(1929) were removed.  After H.P. Blavatsky's departure from Adyar, the
> > >Masters became "alive" at the Adyar Convention.  Who was to stop them?=
=20
>A
> > >member, Franz Hartman, astonished at all these goings on, wrote to=20
>H.P.B.
> > >and I quote from her very long letter of April 1885:
> > >"As to ... that portion of your letter where you speak of the "army" =
=20
>of
> > >the
> > >deluded (viz. T.S. members at the Convention) and the "imaginary"
> >Mahatmas
> > >of Olcott - you are absolutely and sadly right". (Note "sadly right"=20
>and
> > >"imaginary Mahatmas, Olcott's Old Diary Leaves is pure fantasy and
> > >imagination - D.J.B.)  "Have I not seen the thing for nearly 8 years?
> >Have
> > >I
> > >not struggled and fought against Olcott's ardent and gushing=20
>imagination
> > >and
> > >tried to stop him every day of my life?" (Note her words, "his gushing
> > >imagination" on Masters. - DJ.B.)   "Was he not told by me that if he=
=20
>did
> > >not see the Masters in their true light and did not cease speaking and
> > >inflaming people's imagination, that he would be held responsible for=
=20
>all
> > >the evil the Society might come to?" ("Note the words, "inflaming
> >people's
> > >imagination" by tall stories about Masters. - D.J.B.)
> > >Who started inventing all this? To the German theosophist, (Hartman)
> >H.P.B.
> > >explained:
> > >"Then came Damodar and several other fanatics (note this word, -=20
>D.J.B.)
> > >calling them "Mahatmas" and little by little, the Adepts were=20
>transformed
> > >into Gods on earth.  They...were becoming with every day more legendar=
y
> >and
> > >miraculous.  The idea that Masters were mortal men never crossed=20
>anyone's
> > >mind, though They wrote themselves repeatedly" Why did she not stop al=
l
> > >this? As she put it at the end:
> > >"I was always occupied with The Theosophist, and ever in my room.  All
> >were
> > >left to Olcott and Damodar, two fanatics." (The word "fanatics" appear=
s
> > >again. D.J.B.) "How I protested and tried to swim against the current,
> >only
> > >Mr. Sinnett knows, and the Masters."
> > >The Masters (made, as H.P.B. says, omniscient, omnipotent and
> >omnipresent)
> > >leave the Society. We will quote only three phrases of what the Master=
s
> > >said, from Their numerous statements:
> > >1. 'The Society has liberated itself from our grasp and influence, and=
=20
>we
> > >have let it go."
> > >2. "This policy (Olcott's) has done more harm to the spirit of the
> >Society
> > >than several Coulombs can do." (What a strong and damaging statement t=
o
> > >make, "more than what several Coulombs can do." - DJB.)
> > >3. "He (Olcott) saved his body (organization )but the T.S. is now a
> > >soulless
> > >corpse." (Or, he saved the body but killed the soul. - D.J.B)
> > >
> > >Now with the Master K.H. saying "the T.S, has failed", H.P.B. is asked=
=20
>to
> > >start a new movement. Her words:
> > >"Acting under the Master's orders. I began a new movement in the West=
=20
>on
> > >the
> > >original lines ... I founded (the magazine) Lucifer." Now the Lucifer=
=20
>was
> > >founded to attack The Theosophist, otherwise why two magazines? How=20
>else
> > >would her voice be heard? How else could she crusade, a brave and lone
> > >warrior against falsehood? With this we must slowly end her story.
> > >History continues, as the story of others begins, and it is with her
> >memory
> > >that we are more concerned about here. Just as Krishnamurti told me=20
>many
> >a
> > >time, once with tears in his eyes, how he was thrown out of Adyar at a
> > >moment's notice (he came to continue H.P.B.'s work), just as I saw,=20
>year
> > >after year, the pain in his eyes and words, we find from her letters=20
>the
> > >pain coming, as in this sentence:
> > >"...those for whom I had the deepest affection, regarding them as a
> >mother
> > >would her own sons ... have turned against me..." At this point we mus=
t
> > >stop; her story is over. What about her successor? His story would=20
>start.
> > >H.P.B. had told Wm. Q. Judge in July 1886 (and a number of times
> > >thereafter), "Take my place, Judge, ...  replace me at Adyar."
> > >But Annie Besant played politics. "Politics" means fighting for power.
> >She
> > >need not have, for Judge was to die in a year, but she did not know=20
>this.
> > >She would have come to power in any case, and later confessed to many
> > >people, such as B.P. Wadia that she was misled.  An Australian, Mouni
> > >Sadhu,
> > >in his In Days of Great Peace, says on p. 49:
> > >"On my enquiry late in 1926, Mrs. Besant wrote to me:
> > >'It is true that after the death of Col. Olcott in 1907, the Masters
> > >withdrew their direct guidance of the T.S.' " Besant died=20
>broken-hearted,
> > >and as Krishnamurti was to tell me and others later, she nevertheless=
=20
>was
> > >sincere, but the others were not.  Olcott also realized this. In his
> > >biography, Hammer on the Mountain a conversation appears on page 299-
> >300:
> > >Olcott - "I have learned more, particularly as regards Judge -
> > >"Yes, Henry," I (Laura Langford - Holloway) said eagerly,
> > >Olcott - "I know now and it will comfort you to hear it, that I wronge=
d
> > >Judge - not willfully or in malice; nevertheless I have done this and =
I
> > >regret it."
> > >"God bless you", I said and then thanked him for his brave recantation=
.
> > >H.P.B. tells her Masters she wants to start a new movement in her=20
>beloved
> > >India, the home of the Mahatmas, "of whom every Hindu school boy=20
>knows".
> > >(Mahatmas being true sanyasins etc.), but not in Europe.  Master K.H.
> >asks
> > >her to go to pondicherry, but Adyar threatens arrest (as its existence=
=20
>is
> > >at
> > >stake), and in utter disgust, Master K.H.  asks Aurobindo to go to
> > >Pondicherry. Was there any way to save the situation then? Yes, by
> > >recalling
> > >her, as the Master told her "most plainly":
> > >"Master told me most plainly that if the Society did not recall me=20
>before
> > >1886 (which it did not - D.J.B.) They would retire entirely from any
> > >connection with it, signify it to the London Lodge and other European=
=20
>and
> > >American Societies, and break every connection with every member."
> > >Conclusion:
> > >H.P.B. asks, "Whom do I blame?" (for this mess). She answers,=20
>"Certainly
> > >not
> > >I."
> > >Obviously blame goes to Olcott, as the Masters pinned the blame on him=
,
> >but
> > >she is so noble, so chivalrous, that she puts it this way, "Loaded and
> > >heavy
> > >is his karma, poor man...", but she does not blame him. Then whom? "To
> > >human
> > >nature, demanding money." - All this was done for money - for
> >organization,
> > >not teachings. So far as teachings were concerned, she had said, as J.
> > >Krishnamurti had told in practically the same words:
> > >"I saw with terror and anger the false track they (the T.S.) were all
> > >pursuing."
> > >When Judge started his magazine The Path, she had said, so far as the
> > >teachings are concerned:
> > >"Bravo! Judge, ... your Path outclasses my Lucifer any day." While for
> > >Adyar
> > >she said, "Adyar is the laughing-stock of the theosophists themselves,
> >let
> > >alone their enemies.
> > >Even Swami Vivekananda had said, "God knows what happened. But Judge=20
>was
> > >the
> > >best representative the theosophists ever had."
> > >Post Mortem
> > >Is there a post mortem? Possibly yes.
> > >Annie Besant died. She possibly saw things in a better light, and as
> > >reported in The Theosophist Dec.1941. P.232, told Arundale. "The Lodge=
s
> > >have
> > >become confused ... they have forgotten what theosophy is. Their=20
>members
> > >run
> > >here, there, and everywhere, everywhere but towards Theosophy."
> > >"...everywhere but towards Theosophy". This is why this paper is being
> > >written. May there be a new turn of direction by 1991.*
> > >* The approximate time of writing of this essay. Add a prayer for a
> >belated
> > >new turn of direction in 1996. -Ed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Com o MSN Spaces voc=EF=BF=BD divide seu blog, suas fotos, sua lista de=
=20

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