Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt00357)

"What Paul may have stumbled on in his book "The Masters Revealed" is
the people involved in HPB's education.  A world-wide network of men 
trying to inspire good people to stand up against tyranny."

HPB always said the adepts were living men who were part of a 
worldwide network that reached far into antiquity.  To identify 
living men associated with HPB is not surprising.  As far as I can 
tell from recent posts, Paul Johnson excluded the "paranormal" from 
his research to identify some of very real, very human men in HPB's 
association.  Nobody, to my knowledge, ever claimed that Morya's 
adept lineage terminated with Morya.

I've read only an excerpt from Paul Johnson's book, so I don't know 
how clear he was about the limitations of his research.  A good 
researcher defines the parameters of the work undertaken.    

Showing that ordinary people possess extraordinary potentials is a 
worthy study. Albeit, this was not Paul Johnson's objective, and he 
attempted only to identify ordinary people.  

Best regards,
Krsanna


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "robert_b_macd" 
<robert.b.macdonald@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Carlos,
> 
> Given what you have written and other interesting clues, I would 
like
> to offer a wildly speculative theory that nevertheless might have 
some
> truth in it.
> 
> It is clear that HPB was not interested in politics and was never a
> spy for anyone.  It is also clear that the Masters were not 
ignorant
> of the political machinations going on in the World at that time.
> Their discussion of Jesuit plots in India being directed at a 
future 
> Britain (I believe this was around the Ilbert Bill) being a case in
> point.  Their attempts to set up a Phoenix newspaper with Sinnet as
> the editor is another example of their work to promote an organ of
> justice for the Indian masses.  Indeed, your discussion of Mr. 
Abdul 
> Ghafur and Pope Sixtus V indicates that HPB was not unaware of the
> dark forces of the political world and how they fit together 
through
> the centuries.  There is also some indication that St. Germain was
> involved with some of the noble families of Europe in an unofficial
> advisory capacity.
> 
> It seems pretty clear that HPB was destined to found a Society of 
the
> nature of the TS.  Such a Society would have many enemies coming 
from
> many quarters.  One way to educate a leader of such a Society 
would be
> to have her travel around the world and introduced to lesser adepts
> working in the world giving guidance to various movements standing 
up
> against the dark power of tyranny in its many guises.  This aspect 
of
> her education might leave a very sour taste in her mouth for the 
art
> of politics and explain why she wanted nothing to do with it.  She
> could see it for what it was, two sides of the same coin battling
> against each other and controlled by the same puppet master.
> 
> What Paul may have stumbled on in his book "The Masters Revealed" 
is
> the people involved in HPB's education.  A world-wide network of 
men
> trying to inspire good people to stand up against tyranny.
> 
> The TS was created in order to seed the minds of humanity with the
> means to learn to think for themselves so that they too could 
begin to
> lift the political veil and see the tyranny that lies behind it.  
We
> are at a crisis point today.  In the same way that a herd of cows 
is
> comprised of cows, a true sovereign state would be comprised of
> sovereign citizens.  As the citizens of Western Democracies are
> manipulated into giving away their rights and freedoms (individual
> sovereignty), the Western Democratic state is moving towards 
tyranny.
> This whole theme is treated masterly in Plato's "Republic".   
Perhaps
> it would be interesting to take Paul's research and explore this 
theme.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline"
> <carlosaveline@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Bil, dear Paul, dear Friends,
> > 
> > I understand Paul is back to Theos-talk,  so this is addressed to
> him, too.
> > 
> > I will answer now some of Bill's statements and questions below.
> > 
> > Years ago, I had one of Paul Johnson's books at my disposal, 
looked
> at it 
> > and decided
> > I was not interested.
> > 
> > Beside his recent correspondence, I have with me his text "Madame
> Blavatsky, 
> > the 'Veiled Years' "
> > (T.H.C. London 1987).
> > 
> > I also have the "Review Essay" by John Algeo on his book "The 
Masters 
> > Revealed", published in "Theosophical History", July 1995. And I
> have the 
> > recent posting by Paul Johnson with the story of his relations 
with
> the TPH 
> > and John Algeo.
> > 
> > In that story,you will see that he had  fluid relations with the 
USA
>  TPH 
> > for years. You will see that, according to Paul, and I quote ---
> > 
> > 
> > "" 'In Search of the Masters'  was surprisingly well received in 
the
> > Theosophical world, and didn't receive many attacks. John
> > Algeo never indicated any discomfort with the book or desire to
> > squelch it. When I decided to revise and condense it in the
> > form of a series of biographical chapters, I offered it to TPH
> > and the answer was that they would consider it if I was willing
> > to remove or downplay the identifications of M., K.H., etc. and
> > focus mostly on the historical people themselves. This was in
> > 1992; I sent the Ms. in to Brenda Rosen who replied in essence,
> > "No, you completely rewrite it *first* and then we'll consider
> > it." I agreed to do so but the research led in other
> > directions and ultimately I informed her that I would not be
> > able to revise in the way she had requested. Not long after,
> > SUNY Press came through with a contract.
> > 
> > When "The Masters Revealed"  came out in 1994, I had no hard
> > feelings toward TPH, TUP, PLP or THF although it had been
> > disappointing that things fell through and that in no case did
> > I get any substantive feedback on the research (in a cumulative
> > 3.5 years of consideration!) I went to Wheaton the week it
> > was published, was very cordial with John and everyone there,
> > and felt that the book would be no less politely received than
> > its far inferior predecessor. After all the SUNY imprimatur
> > should bring some increased respect, no?
> > Then the positive reviews started flowing, in and outside of the
> > movement, and by February 1995 things had reached a peak of
> > welcoming reception, with the simultaneous appearance of a rave
> > in the New York Times Book Review and a favorable review by Joy
> > Mills in The Quest. I was so pleased by the latter that I sent
> > an email to John Algeo thanking him for letting it appear.
> > Here's where the story begins to turn sour.
> > John had sent me warm, encouraging, supportive email just a few
> > weeks before, saying to pay no mind to the hostile attacks I
> > was getting on theos-l from outraged Theosophists. And this
> > time, when I wrote thanking him for the Quest piece, he replied
> > in a friendly way, saying that he was glad I liked it but that
> > he had more reservations about the book than Joy did-- and that
> > he'd like to discuss it with me. My reply was that
> > reservations were of course warranted; that the book proved
> > HPB's association with Masters in one sense (that of
> > recognized experts in various spiritual traditions, from whom
> > she learned) but not in the other sense of spiritually advanced
> > beings with paranormal abilities, since that was beyond the
> > reach of historical research.""
> > 
> > So far, Paul's words.  End of quote.
> > 
> > From this point on, his narrative describes how John Algeo turned
> against 
> > him. In the quotation above, you have what, in my opinion and
> assessment 
> > (and I respect other opinions)  corresponds  to an opening of
> territory to 
> > Paul Johnson's perspective about the Masters.
> > 
> > Since 1875, the theme of the Mahatmas as individuals has always 
been 
> > considered reserved, or PRIVATE,  for magnetic and other reasons.
> > 
> > It is true that A. P. Sinnett started the vulgarization; 
Leadbeater
> went on; 
> > but since mid century some more care was taken. And sincere 
people,
> even if 
> > under serious illusions, have some respect if not devotion for 
the
> Masters 
> > and HPB.  Devotion can be accompanied by an open mind, as you 
may know.
> > 
> > It is from the viewpoint of aspirants to discipleship, then, or 
from
> the 
> > viewpoint of earnest and lifelong students of HPB/Masters,  that 
Paul 
> > Johnson's perspective tends to be a gross vulgarization of the 
idea of 
> > Adept-Teachers.
> > 
> > By now, I have reasons to believe that Paul Johnson is an honest
> person, and 
> > I respect that, since
> > I believe sincerity is of the essence and more important than 
one's
> ideas at 
> > the lower mental plane.
> > 
> > But if Paul Johnson never belonged to the inner organizations of 
the
> Adyar 
> > Movement, and could not have a knowledge  or a "sense", let's 
say,
> of the 
> > real approach to the Mystery of aspiration to lay discipleship, 
that
> cannot 
> > be said of John Algeo, who helped open room for Johnson's books
> within the 
> > movement.
> > 
> > The long examination and summary Algeo makes of "The Masters
> Revealed" in 
> > "Theosophical History", July 1995, is itself an absurd, because 
of the 
> > totally naive  approach of the book with regard to the Masters 
and HPB.
> > 
> > The "name-by-name-discussion"  Algeo indulges in, with regard to 
the 
> > "Masters' revelation",
> > would be hilarious if it were not too disgusting.
> > 
> > According to Algeo, Paul Johnson considers HPB a "Russian Spy", 
etc.
>  Well, 
> > she has written vehemently about that, explaining why Solovyof
> invented that 
> > lie. It is in her letters to Sinnett.
> > 
> > To give credit to a man like V. Solovyof ( a man whose personal
> "ethics"  
> > was similar to James Wedgwood's  in many ways, if you know what I
> mean) -- 
> > and to deny HPB's words and evidences
> > that SHE WAS NOT A SPY  is more than a flagrant injustice to 
Truth,
> first, 
> > and to HPB and the movement, second.
> > 
> > Talking about that, discussing it without mentioning HPB's 
viewpoint
> and her 
> > words, is tantamount
> > to making libels circulate, in my view.
> > 
> > If Paul Johnson does not want to have respect for HPB and wants 
to
> sell a 
> > book saying she was a Spy, this is one thing.   He may say and 
write 
> > whatever he wants. But when the president of the Adyar TS in the 
USA
> (now 
> > international vice-president) does the same, or helps this 
perspective 
> > circulate inside the movement, this is another, different thing.
> > 
> > I guess this is enough. If you see Algeo's "review", you will
> examine all 
> > purported "personal names" of the Mahatmas. John Algeo writes:
> > 
> > ""... Johnson's aim in this thesis to "identify' the Masters is
> reasonable 
> > and of considerable interest.""
> > (T.H.,  July 1995, p. 238).
> > 
> > And then Algeo goes on to discuss all minute,  useless and 
fanciful
> details 
> > of speculations about Adepts as if they were some historical 
characters 
> > completely immersed in present human Karma!!!
> > 
> > You see what I mean?
> > 
> > Algeo says, p. 245:
> > 
> > 
> > ""Johnson's thesis is a revisionist view of the Theosophical
> Masters, making 
> > them neither  what  Blavatsky and others said them to be  nor 
sheer 
> > inventions, but rather elaborations of historically attested
> prototypes. 
> > That is a reasonable thesis to consider.""  ( T.H., JUly 1995, 
p. 245).
> > 
> > Reasonable thesis ???
> > 
> > Such a thesis cannot be considered reasonable, in a Theosophical
> Society, 
> > because it shows a
> > complete absence of knowledge about what is an Adept.
> > 
> > That is why no Theosophical Publisher, as long  as I know, 
accepted
> Paul's 
> > books.  But their
> > ambiguity, their long examination of the originals, their long
> discussing 
> > these books, this is meaningful, and in this sense I say that 
Algeo
> (and 
> > others) used Paul and his books as a way to discredit HPB and the
> Masters. 
> > And, of course, this was not honest with Paul, either.
> > 
> > As Gregory Tilletts biography of C. W. Leadbeater showed who CWL 
was
> since 
> > the early 1980s,
> > it was "extremely convenient" for some theosophical cardinals to 
put
> HPB at 
> > the same moral level as the "Bishop".
> > 
> > As to Daniel Caldwell / David Green, his websites published 
Paul's
> texts and 
> > books for a number of years, if I remember it right from one of 
Paul's 
> > postings at the  Theos-talk.  And, if you ask Paul, he will
> certainly agree 
> > that Daniel Caldwell and John Algeo are, or seem to be, most 
close
> allies. 
> > And I add: they share the same "editorial policy"...
> > 
> > Believing as I believe that Paul Johnson is a basically honest
> person, I 
> > hope he goes ahead and learns in the future something about the
> nature of 
> > spiritual teachers, be them Adepts or not.
> > 
> > Once he perceives the inner aspects and energies present in the 
HPB's 
> > writings, in the Mahatma Letters, and in other books and 
authors, he
> will 
> > understand what I and many theosophists
> > mean by the idea of "respect for H.P.B.".
> > 
> > I have some confidence in that, since Paul has shown here at
> Theos-talk that 
> > he is a man of good will.  I sincerely hope dialogue will bring a
> better 
> > perspective about the Mystery of Initiates, whose identities are 
NOT in 
> > their identity cards, so to say.
> > 
> > As to the pamphlet "Madame Blavatsky and the 'Veiled Years' ", 
by P. 
> > Johnson, it is very much in the same line as "The Masters 
Revelad".
>   Paul 
> > writes, page  7:
> > 
> > "There are two questions (...).The first concerns the relative
> genuiness of 
> > Gurdjieff and Blavatsky (...). Both may have been charlatans, 
with
> Gurdjieff 
> > merely exploiting the market created by  H.P.B. (...)."
> > 
> > And so he proceeds with several speculations of that same 
level...
> > 
> > 
> > But, as I said earlier, the real problem is not with Paul.  He 
has my 
> > sincere good wishes and my respect, as you have, Bill.
> > 
> > Peace to all beings,
> > 
> > Best regards,   Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> > 
> > 
> > O o o O o o O o o O
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >From: Bill Meredith <meredith_bill@>
> > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Carlos and the  "The Masters 
Revealed"???
> > >Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 17:16:57 -0500
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Bill,
> > > >
> > > > I forgot to write that Paul Johson's books have a lot in 
common
> with 
> > >John
> > > > Algeos perspective.
> > > >
> > >Are you saying now that you have in fact read PJ's books and 
are no
> > >longer passing judgement based on what others have told you to 
think
> > >about them? Good for you then. No doubt you have also sat and 
talked
> > >with John Algeo for at least long enough to understand his 
perspective?
> > >Good for you again.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > There is a common lack of perception about the deeper 
aspects of the
> > > > Esoteric Philosophy.
> > > >
> > >This is your perspective. Could you give us some specific 
examples from
> > >your interaction with Johnson's books and Algeo's perspective 
that we
> > >could then examine for ourselves and perhaps either arrive at a 
similar
> > >conclusion as yours or a different conclusion altogether.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > P.  Johnson (who was a Caldwell's and an Algeo's ally for 
years)
> will 
> > >not
> > > > discuss deep questions regarding the movement or the 
spiritual path.
> > > >
> > >Have you attempted to discuss deep questions with either of 
these
> > >individuals? Sorry, but to me it sounds like you really are 
saying that
> > >these individuals will not agree with your personally accepted 
answers
> > >to the deep questions regarding the movement or the spiritual 
path. If
> > >that is the case, feel free to add me to the list.
> > >
> > >Could you be more specific about your statement that Johnson, 
Caldwell,
> > >and Algeo were allies for years? I have not been privvy to any
> > >information that would lead me to this same conclusion unless 
you mean
> > >that these three were allied in their desire to shed some 
additional
> > >light on the deep questions regarding the movement or the 
spiritual
> > >path. Also, could you provide some idea of what you mean 
by "spiritual
> > >path"? Often such a phrase is used to divide our brothers into 
that
> > >group that is with us on "our" path and those that are not with 
us and
> > >are therefore against us because they dare to tread a different
> > >spiritual path.
> > > > The difference is that Paul does not have a personal project
> involving
> > > > political power in the movement. An important difference, by 
the
> way.
> > > >
> > >
> > >Do you have a personal project involving political power in the
> movement?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Yet -- a book called "The Masters Revealed" -- that is a
> disaster.  That 
> > >was
> > > > most convenient
> > > > to Algeo and to Caldwell -- for a time.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Can you explain why a book called "The Masters Revealed" is a 
disaster?
> > >Do you find it "disgusting" as well?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,  Carlos.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > peace,
> > > >
> > >
> > >bill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> From: Bill Meredith <meredith_bill@>
> > > >> Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Subject: Re: Theos-World Aveline, Caldwell , Algeo & Dugpas
> > > >> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 11:40:13 -0500
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOO
> > > >>>
> > > >>> An Adept-Teacher Explains:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Libels Against HPB Were Made By Dugpas in Vatican and 
Bhutan.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ARE DANIEL  CALDWELL AND JOHN ALGEO NOW
> > > >>>
> > > >>> CONSCIOUSLY PUBLICIZING  THE WORK OF DUGPAS?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOO
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >> Another perspective:
> > > >>
> > > >> Is Carlosaveline Cardoso Aveline now perpetuating the
> heightened public
> > > >> interest in the lies published about HPB through his 
extensive and
> > > >> relentless letter writing campaign protesting against the 
book
> LETTERS
> > > >> OF HPB and attacking Caldwell and Algeo as agents of 
dugpas?  Is 
> > >Aveline
> > > >> consciously drawing the attention of the public 
toward  "the libels
> > > >> against HPB"  and actually contributing to the increased 
sales and
> > > >> publicity of said book?
> > > >>
> > > >> Methinks he doth protest too much.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > 
_________________________________________________________________
> > > > Copa 2006: Sabe como se diz `pênalti' em alemão? Clique aqui!
> > > > http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/dicionario/l-z/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Copa 2006: Já está na hora de saber o que é `Freundschaftsspiel' 
Clique 
> > aqui! http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/dicionario/
> >
>