Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt00343)

Dear Carlos,

Given what you have written and other interesting clues, I would like
to offer a wildly speculative theory that nevertheless might have some
truth in it.

It is clear that HPB was not interested in politics and was never a
spy for anyone.  It is also clear that the Masters were not ignorant
of the political machinations going on in the World at that time.
Their discussion of Jesuit plots in India being directed at a future 
Britain (I believe this was around the Ilbert Bill) being a case in
point.  Their attempts to set up a Phoenix newspaper with Sinnet as
the editor is another example of their work to promote an organ of
justice for the Indian masses.  Indeed, your discussion of Mr. Abdul 
Ghafur and Pope Sixtus V indicates that HPB was not unaware of the
dark forces of the political world and how they fit together through
the centuries.  There is also some indication that St. Germain was
involved with some of the noble families of Europe in an unofficial
advisory capacity.

It seems pretty clear that HPB was destined to found a Society of the
nature of the TS.  Such a Society would have many enemies coming from
many quarters.  One way to educate a leader of such a Society would be
to have her travel around the world and introduced to lesser adepts
working in the world giving guidance to various movements standing up
against the dark power of tyranny in its many guises.  This aspect of
her education might leave a very sour taste in her mouth for the art
of politics and explain why she wanted nothing to do with it.  She
could see it for what it was, two sides of the same coin battling
against each other and controlled by the same puppet master.

What Paul may have stumbled on in his book "The Masters Revealed" is
the people involved in HPB's education.  A world-wide network of men
trying to inspire good people to stand up against tyranny.

The TS was created in order to seed the minds of humanity with the
means to learn to think for themselves so that they too could begin to
lift the political veil and see the tyranny that lies behind it.  We
are at a crisis point today.  In the same way that a herd of cows is
comprised of cows, a true sovereign state would be comprised of
sovereign citizens.  As the citizens of Western Democracies are
manipulated into giving away their rights and freedoms (individual
sovereignty), the Western Democratic state is moving towards tyranny.
This whole theme is treated masterly in Plato's "Republic".   Perhaps
it would be interesting to take Paul's research and explore this theme.

Bruce


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline"
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Dear Bil, dear Paul, dear Friends,
> 
> I understand Paul is back to Theos-talk,  so this is addressed to
him, too.
> 
> I will answer now some of Bill's statements and questions below.
> 
> Years ago, I had one of Paul Johnson's books at my disposal, looked
at it 
> and decided
> I was not interested.
> 
> Beside his recent correspondence, I have with me his text "Madame
Blavatsky, 
> the 'Veiled Years' "
> (T.H.C. London 1987).
> 
> I also have the "Review Essay" by John Algeo on his book "The Masters 
> Revealed", published in "Theosophical History", July 1995. And I
have the 
> recent posting by Paul Johnson with the story of his relations with
the TPH 
> and John Algeo.
> 
> In that story,you will see that he had  fluid relations with the USA
 TPH 
> for years. You will see that, according to Paul, and I quote ---
> 
> 
> "" 'In Search of the Masters'  was surprisingly well received in the
> Theosophical world, and didn't receive many attacks. John
> Algeo never indicated any discomfort with the book or desire to
> squelch it. When I decided to revise and condense it in the
> form of a series of biographical chapters, I offered it to TPH
> and the answer was that they would consider it if I was willing
> to remove or downplay the identifications of M., K.H., etc. and
> focus mostly on the historical people themselves. This was in
> 1992; I sent the Ms. in to Brenda Rosen who replied in essence,
> "No, you completely rewrite it *first* and then we'll consider
> it." I agreed to do so but the research led in other
> directions and ultimately I informed her that I would not be
> able to revise in the way she had requested. Not long after,
> SUNY Press came through with a contract.
> 
> When "The Masters Revealed"  came out in 1994, I had no hard
> feelings toward TPH, TUP, PLP or THF although it had been
> disappointing that things fell through and that in no case did
> I get any substantive feedback on the research (in a cumulative
> 3.5 years of consideration!) I went to Wheaton the week it
> was published, was very cordial with John and everyone there,
> and felt that the book would be no less politely received than
> its far inferior predecessor. After all the SUNY imprimatur
> should bring some increased respect, no?
> Then the positive reviews started flowing, in and outside of the
> movement, and by February 1995 things had reached a peak of
> welcoming reception, with the simultaneous appearance of a rave
> in the New York Times Book Review and a favorable review by Joy
> Mills in The Quest. I was so pleased by the latter that I sent
> an email to John Algeo thanking him for letting it appear.
> Here's where the story begins to turn sour.
> John had sent me warm, encouraging, supportive email just a few
> weeks before, saying to pay no mind to the hostile attacks I
> was getting on theos-l from outraged Theosophists. And this
> time, when I wrote thanking him for the Quest piece, he replied
> in a friendly way, saying that he was glad I liked it but that
> he had more reservations about the book than Joy did-- and that
> he'd like to discuss it with me. My reply was that
> reservations were of course warranted; that the book proved
> HPB's association with Masters in one sense (that of
> recognized experts in various spiritual traditions, from whom
> she learned) but not in the other sense of spiritually advanced
> beings with paranormal abilities, since that was beyond the
> reach of historical research.""
> 
> So far, Paul's words.  End of quote.
> 
> From this point on, his narrative describes how John Algeo turned
against 
> him. In the quotation above, you have what, in my opinion and
assessment 
> (and I respect other opinions)  corresponds  to an opening of
territory to 
> Paul Johnson's perspective about the Masters.
> 
> Since 1875, the theme of the Mahatmas as individuals has always been 
> considered reserved, or PRIVATE,  for magnetic and other reasons.
> 
> It is true that A. P. Sinnett started the vulgarization; Leadbeater
went on; 
> but since mid century some more care was taken. And sincere people,
even if 
> under serious illusions, have some respect if not devotion for the
Masters 
> and HPB.  Devotion can be accompanied by an open mind, as you may know.
> 
> It is from the viewpoint of aspirants to discipleship, then, or from
the 
> viewpoint of earnest and lifelong students of HPB/Masters,  that Paul 
> Johnson's perspective tends to be a gross vulgarization of the idea of 
> Adept-Teachers.
> 
> By now, I have reasons to believe that Paul Johnson is an honest
person, and 
> I respect that, since
> I believe sincerity is of the essence and more important than one's
ideas at 
> the lower mental plane.
> 
> But if Paul Johnson never belonged to the inner organizations of the
Adyar 
> Movement, and could not have a knowledge  or a "sense", let's say,
of the 
> real approach to the Mystery of aspiration to lay discipleship, that
cannot 
> be said of John Algeo, who helped open room for Johnson's books
within the 
> movement.
> 
> The long examination and summary Algeo makes of "The Masters
Revealed" in 
> "Theosophical History", July 1995, is itself an absurd, because of the 
> totally naive  approach of the book with regard to the Masters and HPB.
> 
> The "name-by-name-discussion"  Algeo indulges in, with regard to the 
> "Masters' revelation",
> would be hilarious if it were not too disgusting.
> 
> According to Algeo, Paul Johnson considers HPB a "Russian Spy", etc.
 Well, 
> she has written vehemently about that, explaining why Solovyof
invented that 
> lie. It is in her letters to Sinnett.
> 
> To give credit to a man like V. Solovyof ( a man whose personal
"ethics"  
> was similar to James Wedgwood's  in many ways, if you know what I
mean) -- 
> and to deny HPB's words and evidences
> that SHE WAS NOT A SPY  is more than a flagrant injustice to Truth,
first, 
> and to HPB and the movement, second.
> 
> Talking about that, discussing it without mentioning HPB's viewpoint
and her 
> words, is tantamount
> to making libels circulate, in my view.
> 
> If Paul Johnson does not want to have respect for HPB and wants to
sell a 
> book saying she was a Spy, this is one thing.   He may say and write 
> whatever he wants. But when the president of the Adyar TS in the USA
(now 
> international vice-president) does the same, or helps this perspective 
> circulate inside the movement, this is another, different thing.
> 
> I guess this is enough. If you see Algeo's "review", you will
examine all 
> purported "personal names" of the Mahatmas. John Algeo writes:
> 
> ""... Johnson's aim in this thesis to "identify' the Masters is
reasonable 
> and of considerable interest.""
> (T.H.,  July 1995, p. 238).
> 
> And then Algeo goes on to discuss all minute,  useless and fanciful
details 
> of speculations about Adepts as if they were some historical characters 
> completely immersed in present human Karma!!!
> 
> You see what I mean?
> 
> Algeo says, p. 245:
> 
> 
> ""Johnson's thesis is a revisionist view of the Theosophical
Masters, making 
> them neither  what  Blavatsky and others said them to be  nor sheer 
> inventions, but rather elaborations of historically attested
prototypes. 
> That is a reasonable thesis to consider.""  ( T.H., JUly 1995, p. 245).
> 
> Reasonable thesis ???
> 
> Such a thesis cannot be considered reasonable, in a Theosophical
Society, 
> because it shows a
> complete absence of knowledge about what is an Adept.
> 
> That is why no Theosophical Publisher, as long  as I know, accepted
Paul's 
> books.  But their
> ambiguity, their long examination of the originals, their long
discussing 
> these books, this is meaningful, and in this sense I say that Algeo
(and 
> others) used Paul and his books as a way to discredit HPB and the
Masters. 
> And, of course, this was not honest with Paul, either.
> 
> As Gregory Tilletts biography of C. W. Leadbeater showed who CWL was
since 
> the early 1980s,
> it was "extremely convenient" for some theosophical cardinals to put
HPB at 
> the same moral level as the "Bishop".
> 
> As to Daniel Caldwell / David Green, his websites published Paul's
texts and 
> books for a number of years, if I remember it right from one of Paul's 
> postings at the  Theos-talk.  And, if you ask Paul, he will
certainly agree 
> that Daniel Caldwell and John Algeo are, or seem to be, most close
allies. 
> And I add: they share the same "editorial policy"...
> 
> Believing as I believe that Paul Johnson is a basically honest
person, I 
> hope he goes ahead and learns in the future something about the
nature of 
> spiritual teachers, be them Adepts or not.
> 
> Once he perceives the inner aspects and energies present in the HPB's 
> writings, in the Mahatma Letters, and in other books and authors, he
will 
> understand what I and many theosophists
> mean by the idea of "respect for H.P.B.".
> 
> I have some confidence in that, since Paul has shown here at
Theos-talk that 
> he is a man of good will.  I sincerely hope dialogue will bring a
better 
> perspective about the Mystery of Initiates, whose identities are NOT in 
> their identity cards, so to say.
> 
> As to the pamphlet "Madame Blavatsky and the 'Veiled Years' ", by P. 
> Johnson, it is very much in the same line as "The Masters Revelad".
  Paul 
> writes, page  7:
> 
> "There are two questions (...).The first concerns the relative
genuiness of 
> Gurdjieff and Blavatsky (...). Both may have been charlatans, with
Gurdjieff 
> merely exploiting the market created by  H.P.B. (...)."
> 
> And so he proceeds with several speculations of that same level...
> 
> 
> But, as I said earlier, the real problem is not with Paul.  He has my 
> sincere good wishes and my respect, as you have, Bill.
> 
> Peace to all beings,
> 
> Best regards,   Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> 
> 
> O o o O o o O o o O
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >From: Bill Meredith <meredith_bill@...>
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Carlos and the  "The Masters Revealed"???
> >Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 17:16:57 -0500
> >
> >
> >
> >carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Bill,
> > >
> > > I forgot to write that Paul Johson's books have a lot in common
with 
> >John
> > > Algeos perspective.
> > >
> >Are you saying now that you have in fact read PJ's books and are no
> >longer passing judgement based on what others have told you to think
> >about them? Good for you then. No doubt you have also sat and talked
> >with John Algeo for at least long enough to understand his perspective?
> >Good for you again.
> >
> >
> >
> > > There is a common lack of perception about the deeper aspects of the
> > > Esoteric Philosophy.
> > >
> >This is your perspective. Could you give us some specific examples from
> >your interaction with Johnson's books and Algeo's perspective that we
> >could then examine for ourselves and perhaps either arrive at a similar
> >conclusion as yours or a different conclusion altogether.
> >
> >
> >
> > > P.  Johnson (who was a Caldwell's and an Algeo's ally for years)
will 
> >not
> > > discuss deep questions regarding the movement or the spiritual path.
> > >
> >Have you attempted to discuss deep questions with either of these
> >individuals? Sorry, but to me it sounds like you really are saying that
> >these individuals will not agree with your personally accepted answers
> >to the deep questions regarding the movement or the spiritual path. If
> >that is the case, feel free to add me to the list.
> >
> >Could you be more specific about your statement that Johnson, Caldwell,
> >and Algeo were allies for years? I have not been privvy to any
> >information that would lead me to this same conclusion unless you mean
> >that these three were allied in their desire to shed some additional
> >light on the deep questions regarding the movement or the spiritual
> >path. Also, could you provide some idea of what you mean by "spiritual
> >path"? Often such a phrase is used to divide our brothers into that
> >group that is with us on "our" path and those that are not with us and
> >are therefore against us because they dare to tread a different
> >spiritual path.
> > > The difference is that Paul does not have a personal project
involving
> > > political power in the movement. An important difference, by the
way.
> > >
> >
> >Do you have a personal project involving political power in the
movement?
> >
> >
> >
> > > Yet -- a book called "The Masters Revealed" -- that is a
disaster.  That 
> >was
> > > most convenient
> > > to Algeo and to Caldwell -- for a time.
> > >
> >
> >
> >Can you explain why a book called "The Masters Revealed" is a disaster?
> >Do you find it "disgusting" as well?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Best regards,  Carlos.
> > >
> > >
> > > peace,
> > >
> >
> >bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> From: Bill Meredith <meredith_bill@...>
> > >> Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Subject: Re: Theos-World Aveline, Caldwell , Algeo & Dugpas
> > >> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 11:40:13 -0500
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOO
> > >>>
> > >>> An Adept-Teacher Explains:
> > >>>
> > >>> Libels Against HPB Were Made By Dugpas in Vatican and Bhutan.
> > >>>
> > >>> ARE DANIEL  CALDWELL AND JOHN ALGEO NOW
> > >>>
> > >>> CONSCIOUSLY PUBLICIZING  THE WORK OF DUGPAS?
> > >>>
> > >>> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOO
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> Another perspective:
> > >>
> > >> Is Carlosaveline Cardoso Aveline now perpetuating the
heightened public
> > >> interest in the lies published about HPB through his extensive and
> > >> relentless letter writing campaign protesting against the book
LETTERS
> > >> OF HPB and attacking Caldwell and Algeo as agents of dugpas?  Is 
> >Aveline
> > >> consciously drawing the attention of the public toward  "the libels
> > >> against HPB"  and actually contributing to the increased sales and
> > >> publicity of said book?
> > >>
> > >> Methinks he doth protest too much.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Copa 2006: Sabe como se diz `pênalti' em alemão? Clique aqui!
> > > http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/dicionario/l-z/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Copa 2006: Já está na hora de saber o que é `Freundschaftsspiel' Clique 
> aqui! http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/dicionario/
>