Theos-Talk Archives (December 2005 Message tt00328)

Hello Morten,
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" <global-
theosophy@s...> wrote:
>
> Hallo Anand,
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> About the second Teacher I will say this:
> 
> "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, 
or the 
> competence of another man or institution, he must first learn 
something 
> which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his 
perception itself 
> is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional 
attraction to the 
> individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This 
is 'Learning How To 
> Learn."
> (from 'Learning how to Learn' by Idries Shah)

I agree with this point. But question was who was/is second teacher. 
Most probably second and real teacher was Annie Besant who was 
appointed, proved by her calibre and work. However I think Masters 
would send somebody time to time, some teacher to carry out work of 
Theosophy. TS was never meant for dependence on one leader only. It 
was always considered as society that would go on for hundreds of 
years. Obviously it will need real teachers and I think it will get. 
 
> 
> 
> Then the next questions of mine comes forward again.
> Here I take the three next of the 15-16 questions to ponder or 
contemplate.
> 
> A.
> Who are being or has been mistaken for being the "second teacher" 
within
> theosophical teachings, but are or was in fact only promoting a 
theosophical
> Cult, (emotional and what not) - with merely social and 
psychological
> teachings as the main objective?
> 
> B.
> And who has been or are promoting The Theosophical Society merely 
as an
> emotional cult and was this creation of a cult in accordance with 
the
> original ideas or with the wisdom teachings?

Immediately after Blavatsky's death, a sect or cult was formed. She 
did not want it. But her writing is such that sect or cult 
automatically forms among her students. 
Annie Besant spoke and wrote against cult, sect. But in ULT, 
Pasadena TS, there were always some individuals who tried to create 
sect or cult. And some Blavatsyans in Adyar TS have also become very 
dogmatic. 


> 
> C.
> Who are merely frozen in the development of the furtherance of the
> theosophical teachings (the doctrine of "business-as-usual") - and 
not
> knowing to be so?
> 
> 
> Or I could ask which groups or organisations if any are involved 
in this?

You can easily guess which groups are frozen. Adyar TS has taken 
precaution by printing Freedom of Thought on every Theosophist 
issue. But that alone is not sufficient. There are some more things 
they should do to stop formation of dogma and cult. 

Anand Gholap
> 
> 
> 
> from
> M. Sufilight with the Seekers after Truth...
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anand Gholap" <AnandGholap@A...>
> To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 1:29 PM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: Forget HPB & her writing, consider Besant 
as 
> founder & move on
> 
> 
> > Hello Morten,
> > Article is interesting. Indeed major problem for most is who is
> > second and real teacher mentioned here.
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" <global-
> > theosophy@s...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hallo Anand and all,
> >>
> >> My views are:
> >>
> >> I think we have been talking about these issues before here at
> > Theos-talk.
> >>
> >> Maybe Anand, other participants to this thread as well as 
various
> >> theosophists could be helped
> >> by reading a previous email of mine to this place:
> >> http://theos-talk.com/archives/200409/tt00536.html
> >> (And read also the links within the emails)
> >> Especially this one:
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/17916
> >>
> >> An major excerpt from the last link are given in the below
> >> It is in part about what happened when Blavatsky died 
physically:
> >>
> >> "After the disappearance from the field of a teacher of Wisdom,
> > the
> >> followers
> >> will divide themselves into groups, in accordance with their
> > strength and
> >> weaknesses. Some will assume control of others. They may be good
> > or bad, and
> >> this will be shown by their reaction to - the second teacher -
> > when he/she
> >> arrives.
> >> If they realise he/she is their teacher, then they have merely
> > been
> >> developing
> >> themselves and can mature. But if they have become atrophied, 
they
> > will be
> >> too
> >> blind to recognize the Spirituality of the very teacher, for 
which
> >> appearance
> >> they have been prepared. They may attach themselves, in default,
> > to a
> >> different
> >> group. (And this groups existence is maybe no coincidence.) 
Again
> > well and
> >> good
> >> : providing they return to the mainstream of teaching when it is
> > offered to
> >> them
> >> again. This is the test of whether they have overcome the lower
> > self. They
> >> will
> >> realise, if they are sufficiently developed, that the person who
> > appears to
> >> be
> >> 'second' teacher is in reality - the first in importance.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Life is reversed for the undeveloped man (the newcomer), and
> > he/she will
> >> behave
> >> in accordance with this. The first teacher does not make life
> > easier, in
> >> most
> >> cases, for the generality of disciples. He/She will teach them
> > things, which
> >> are
> >> only of use when the second teacher arrives and reality falls 
into
> > place.
> >> The
> >> object of this is twofold. In the first place, certain valuable
> > thoughts
> >> have
> >> been given to the disciples. In the second, they are tested by 
the
> > means of
> >> these ideas. Just as our western psychologists give odd-shaped
> > pieces of
> >> wood to
> >> people, to see how they put them together, teachers of Wisdom 
will
> > give
> >> odd-pieces of material of - mental kind - to his/her 
followers. -
> > If they
> >> try to
> >> fit these together however, and to make a pattern in his/hers -
> > absences, -
> >> they
> >> are becoming 'fossilised'. Because, the Wisdom tradition has to
> > show that
> >> the
> >> object of mankind is not to construct idols, but to follow a
> > supreme
> >> pattern,
> >> which is learnt piece by piece.
> >>
> >> When a system of teaching of wisdom is in a period of 
fallowness,
> > because
> >> the
> >> one who propagated it is dead, then there comes a period of
> > stagnation. This
> >> period can last between 10 years, 15 years or more. In the time,
> > which
> >> passes,
> >> the group of people who is affected by the system are sieved by
> > natural
> >> means.
> >> Some wander away. Others carry on automatically not really
> > knowing, what
> >> they
> >> are doing. They are now 'frozen', though they do not know they 
are.
> >> The blind may try to lead the blinder. This takes the form of
> > assumption of
> >> authority by those who were given some sort of authority in the
> > original
> >> mandate. These are the people in the most dangerous position,
> > because the
> >> longer
> >> they remain 'orphaned' the more strongly their lower self (or 
the
> > three
> >> lower
> >> bodies) asserts it self.
> >> Others may modify the teachings in a learned and personal way.
> > Some
> >> certainly
> >> fall a prey to cults, which have come into being in order to 
serve
> > them. The
> >> people who joins these are at great pains to explain why they
> > consider, that
> >> they represent the same kind of teaching - and this is 
important.
> > It is
> >> important, because it shows the Theosophist or the real
> > spiritually minded,
> >> very
> >> clearly, that the people who try to explain - are in fact 
troubled
> > by
> >> conscience. Somewhere inside them, they know, that they are
> > identifying
> >> themselves with an imitation, or a second-best. But they are
> > supported by
> >> their
> >> lower bodies or lower personality, - and this is too strong for
> > them.
> >> Those can be helped by being lead to think in new thinking-
> > patterns and
> >> systems.
> >> It is via the conscience, that one finds the path forward, -
> > thereby will be
> >> able to remove the limitations of the lower personality."
> >>
> >> And again:
> >> So very important: The use of ideas is to shape a man or woman,
> > not to
> >> support a
> >> system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in
> > which the
> >> Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of
> > ideas and
> >> movements. This seems important to understand and know about.
> >>
> >> My views is:
> >> Dead-letter teachings has never been the hallmark of real
> > theosophy.
> >> There is actually no need to use the very words "theosophy" or
> >> "Theosophical"
> >> when TODAY forwarding true and honest teachings (related to 
time,
> > place and
> >> people mind you)
> >> about the Path or Atma-Vidya etc...
> >> Today a number of wellmeaning Theosophists forget too much to
> > CLEARLY point
> >> this out to Seekers they themselves teach or guide.
> >>
> >> What we don't need is the create yet a new set of branches each 
of
> > them
> >> being sort of
> >> "Bible-collection"-studying sects accepting only dead-letter
> > teachings (as
> >> main teachings)
> >> containing the words "Theosophical" or "theosophy" as a 
NECESSITY.
> >> And with each sect using their own Bible-collection.
> >>
> >> Another excerpt trying to some how escape business as usual:
> >> "So how is the development of The Theosophical Soceity and 
various
> >> theosophical groups going to be in the future - IF - we as a
> > minimum base
> >> our views on my above email - while keeping the link to J.J. van
> > der Leeuw
> >> pamphlet in the first link in the above in mind?
> >>
> >> We could with some adavantage ponder on the following questions:
> >> 1. Who is (or was) the "second teacher(s)" - if any - within
> > Theosophy? -
> >> And will there be or has there been a third, fourth or fifth
> > teacher?
> >> 2. Who are being or has been mistaken for being the "second
> > teacher" within
> >> theosophical teachings, but are or was in fact only promoting a
> > theosophical
> >> Cult, (emotional and what not) - with merely social and
> > psychological
> >> teachings as the main objective?
> >> 3. And who has been or are promoting The Theosophical Society
> > merely as an
> >> emotional cult and was this creation of a cult in accordance 
with
> > the
> >> original ideas or with the wisdom teachings?
> >> 4. Who are merely frozen in the development of the furtherance 
of
> > the
> >> theosophical teachings (the doctrine of "business-as-usual") - 
and
> > not
> >> knowing to be so?
> >> 5. Who have merely been writing interpretations on the
> > theosophical
> >> teachings in a learned manner since HPB died - and had success 
in
> > building
> >> an marked increase in support to the theosophical cause?
> >> 6. - And who have merely been writing interpretations on the
> > theosophical
> >> teachings in a learned manner since HPB died - but failed to 
build
> > an marked
> >> increase in support to the theosophical cause?
> >> 7. Is your conscience not telling you that a teaching which are
> > labelled as
> >> "secondary" is not as good as a teaching named "primary" -
> >> with a "primary" and up-to-date Teacher guiding you? (A Teacher
> > who is
> >> alive - and - not living in the past guiding you with "past"
> > teachings.)
> >> 8. Have you actually matured visibly as a Seeker beyond the
> > average
> >> fellow-human-beings level of consciuosness just by reading a few
> >> theosophical books or even one hundred of them? And do all 
Seekers
> > who do
> >> that mature beyond that level?
> >> 9. Can real theosophical teaching happen in randomly collected
> > groups -
> >> where the listeners are not in harmony with each other, the
> > teacher, time,
> >> place and circumstances? (Are it just not merely information
> > stimulating the
> >> intellect which are being exchanged?)
> >> 9. Can the blind lead the blinder? (Maybe it is good to be 
honest
> > about how
> >> blind one is.)
> >> 10. Do you not need a - real - teacher first?
> >> 11. Can Universal Brotherhood be created or is it just merely a
> > dream with
> >> all those theosophical sects (and Sisterhoods >:-)...) around in
> > the world?
> >> Sects because they do not openly tell the Seekers how they 
relate
> > to other
> >> theosophical groups year 2004.
> >> 12. Will the Theosophical Societies and other theosophical 
groups
> > create a
> >> good furtherance of its teachings through promotion of so-
> > called "spritiaul
> >> Master Revelations" presented or treated by various Theosophical
> > leaders as
> >> an authority? (What was good in the good old days - is maybe not
> > good
> >> today.)
> >> 13. Is the furtherance of the theosophical teachings based on
> > giving more
> >> emphasis to the opening of the spiritual Heart, love and 
unselfsh
> > healing
> >> more than what can be termed "business-as-usual" or the 
spiritual
> > support of
> >> emotional get-to-gethers?
> >> 14. How aught one to promote oneself as a Teacher of theosophy?
> > And how not?
> >> 15. How do I promote Theosophy at work? Through social-get-
> > togethers?
> >>
> >>
> >> My views are:
> >> Answering these questions will provide material enough to write
> > several
> >> volumes of text.
> >> At this place we call Theos-Talk, we dare challenge leadership 
and
> > how it
> >> aught to be used theosophically speaking.
> >> At various theosophical groups leadership are not allowed to be
> > challenged.
> >> Some of the reasons for this I think J.J. van der Leeuw has
> > presented in his
> >> still important pamphlet. Blavatsky was challenged and allowed 
it
> > to happen
> >> to a very great extend."
> >>
> >>
> >> And again:
> >> So very important: The use of ideas is to shape a man or woman,
> > not to
> >> support a
> >> system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in
> > which the
> >> Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of
> > ideas and
> >> movements. This seems important to understand and know about.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> from
> >> M. Sufilight with a smile...
> >>
> >>
> >>
>