Theos-Talk Archives (December 2005 Message tt00226)

DEC 20 05


Dear Cin:

see notes below please,


Dallas

========================

-----Original Message-----
From: Cin
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 4:56 AM
To: dalval14@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: CAPITAL PUNISHMENT


Dear Dallas,  


(in part you wrote)  
 
CC	I agree with Mr. Judge, it is all a matter of karma, rings within
rings so to speak.  It is not the results of karma that concerns me, for
karma must run itself out, there is no changing that. 
 
I am more concerned with the "religious" factor.  [ HOW ? ]

Too many are "calling down the power of god" to take revenge on their
brothers.  Too many are touting "armegeddon, appocalypse" and it is
polarizing us in this country, and around the world.   



DTB	THAT IS PRIEST TALK -- irrational. It has no logic in the true
sense. 

The ignorant and those who are lazy and do not think for themselves drink it
up. They think, (or rather sink into a stupor after an hour or so of being
sermonized, that they are absolved of responsibility. 



CC Religion has great appeal because it contains grains of truth and
the divine in us recognizes it and is naturally attracted.


DTB	apply “ MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS ” attitude.  
 
 
CC	I realize that we may not consciously be aware of that recognition
and attraction.  And I also know that like a stone tossed in a pond,
eventually the entire body will feel the effects of the ripples the stone
has created.  

But is not the effect of the nonsense that man has heaped on top of the
truth also felt?



DTB	right it is. Extends ultimately to the whole Universe. There is
an inevitable ripple effect on the moral and ethical planes, as on the
physical.  

This makes family, community, national and finally mundial Karma.

Moral and ethical forces operate, regardless of religions. 

Individual nature is twofold: selfish and unselfish. We, as independent
thinkers and choosers, have to control our own potential future by choice.
If we “pretend” to be “good,” and are not, then indeed we are hypocrites.
{Not a virtue.) 

Wee need to study the RULES and LAWS of the UNIVERSE. At the least we ought
to apply the injunctions of Jesus. 

Study Karma and Reincarnation. And ask yourself: who does the
reincarnating? Is it a MIND BEING ? Are we, or are we not MIND BEINGS ?

In each of us, it is the eternal INDIVIDUAL -- Mind (a MIND-BEING) which is
also associated with, and sometimes called the ETERNAL Monad -- or
ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS [spirit/truth – wisdom – logical thinker -- and the
singular triad is an IMMORTAL. 

It is as old as the Universe and cannot be destroyed. 

For this reason, capital punishment in this incarnation may be depriving a
close Monadic/mind relative of a past life, of its body and the Karma
relating to it and to us. 

Revenge is always short-sighted. And so are ALL impulsive, desire-actuated
impulses. Mind is the controller. We have to be patient and accurate --and
when in doubt, WE OUGHT TO ABSTAIN FROM ACTION.  

Actually, killing the body is no punishment. Jesus came to the Jews
precisely to have such rigid [an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth] and
irrational, ignorant and hasty decisions, ended.  

The OLD TESTAMENT is not CHRISTIANITY. 

Each incarnation, it associates with a PERSONALITY – consisting of desires
and mind -- called fore that period the Kama-Manas. There are two
intertwined forces of Karma. Man’s MIND is independent – a Free Thinker --
Its free choice makes Karma good or bad. Observer this in yourself
momentarily. No desire, thought or action can originate without a deliberate
moment of decision / choice.


Best wishes,

Dal

==============


As always with warmest regards,
 
Cin
----- Original Message ----- 
From: W.Dallas TenBroeck 
To: 'Cindy Chapman' 
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: RE: CAPITAL PUNISHMENT

Dec 19 2005
 
Dear Cin & Friends
 
            Re: CAPITAL PUNISHMENT  --  KAMA-LOKA
 
 
Excuse brevity -- just back 
 
Here are some quotes to consider:
 
                        From FORUM ANSWERS
 
 
 
                        EFFECT  OF  WAR  ---   KAMA - LOCA
 
 
Q.:        What was the effect of our civil war on the astralplane, and
reflexively on ourselves?
 
W.Q.J.—-To answer this Question aright would require the powers of an Adept
who could see into the astral light and measure the exact results. 
 
But SUDDEN DEATHS IN WAR are not the same in effect as the killing of a
murderer or a wicked man who has violated the law. 
 
The men destroyed in battle are engaged in the moving of troops, the
arrangement of batteries, firing of volleys, and using the sword. Their
attention is almost wholly thus occupied, and when they are suddenly killed
it is with this idea of present attack and defence fixed in their nature. 
 
            The ASTRAL WARRIOR confines himself to the repetition of attack
and defence, 
 
If we suppose them as lingering in the astral plane, then they will there
continue the same actions which occupied them at the time of death. 
 
But the CRIMINAL, who has led a criminal life, who is full of evil passions,
and who steps off into the other world with a heart full of passion and
revenge, will linger on the other plane full of those unsatisfied desires,
and not overmastered, as is the warrior, by a single strong idea. …the
CRIMINAL seeks to satisfy his revenge and bad instincts in general
 
The ASTRAL WARRIOR confines himself to the repetition of attack and defence,

 
while the CRIMINAL seeks to satisfy his revenge and bad instincts in
general. 
 
These considerations seem to me to point out a difference. I do not pretend
to answer the whole question, however, as to the effect of war acting from
other planes.
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------
 
 
                        VIOLENTDEATH   --  SUICIDE  --  MURDER
 
 
It is well known that after violent death of the body the principles above
the material do not separate as in other cases, do not go to Devachan, do
not dissipate. 
 
In a case of natural ordinary demise the astral body dissipates, so does
Kama-rupa; with the other cases it is not so. 
 
 
                                    SUICIDE
 
 
P 24                 The man who kills himself is not really dead. Only his
body is dead; he remains a living man in the astral spheres close to us,
minus a body. 
 
If left alone he comes to his end in due course, but a long way off,
generally measured by the length of years he would have lived if he had not
raised hand against himself. 
 
But if he is drawn into a medium, he is given a new attraction which ties
him to earth and makes him drunk, as it were, with the fumes of life. This
retards him and causes him to live long, long years in Kama Loka, and
curses, too, the one who draws him thus further down. 
 
How does “the orderly working of Karma” go against this? It is his Karma
that made him a suicide, that put it in the power of mediums to disturb him.
It is exactly the case of a man who drinks to excess, and who thus puts
himself where he may be harmed by other evil influences. 
 
 
                                    ACCIDENTAL DEATH
 
 
P. 25                Also in the case of accidental death. Karma made by the
same person decrees that he shall so punish himself and so lay himself open
to all the consequences that may follow. 
 
That is no reason why we should ignore the law and pay a dollar to gratify
our whims and at the same time hurt a fellow-being. 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
                                    DEATH PENALTY
 
 
Q.:       As Karma punishes all sins, is it right or desirable that human
laws should punish crime by death or imprisonment?
 
W.Q.J.—My individual opinion upon 
 
P. 29    “…the death penalty is that it is neither right nor desirable 
 
that human laws should punish crime by death, but this answer presupposes in
the race such a knowledge of proper conduct and a constant practice of the
same that every human being is a perfect law unto himself and for all, and
that no laws are needed because all know and keep the laws of morality and
nature. 
 
As, however, men as yet are very imperfect and are struggling to find the
right rule of conduct, laws are necessary for evil-doers. Here, then, arises
the question whether society is benefited by law imposing the death penalty,
and as to that many able writers speak on one side and many on the other. To
my mind it appears that 
 
p. 29    “…the crime of murder has not diminished because of capital
punishment, nor do I think any law will ever stamp out that offense. 
 
Indeed, I know that the majority of Theosophists regard capital punishment
as a greater evil than that which it is directed against. But as
Theosophists we have not much [ 30 ] 
 
to do with such a question, since it lies in the domain of government. 
 
P. 30    Our duty is to teach those ethics and that philosophy which alone
will remedy the evil by raising men above the possibility of committing
crime or becoming amenable to law. 
 
If we waste our energies in attempting reforms on the surface, either in law
or in politics, a great opportunity will slip away before we know it. 
 
The remaining query is upon the subject of punitive law in general, and on
that my view is that the question put flies wild of any point, because even
these very laws enacted for the punishment of evil-doers are themselves the
product of Karma. 
 
The state of the race which evinces crime is due to its Karma, hence the
present system, the criminals who fill our jails, the judiciary and the
executive departments administering the laws, are all products of Karma. 
 
It therefore follows that where, through man-made laws, offenders are fined
or imprisoned, such punishments are those of Karma. It thus appears to me
that the question is wholly one relating to reform in a mere social or
political institution.
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
Hope this helps  (unwell hence brevity. sorry)
 
 
Dallas
 
======================================================