Theos-Talk Archives (December 2005 Message tt00196)

Dec 19 2005



Dear Cin & Friends



Re: CAPITAL PUNISHMENT -- KAMA-LOKA





Excuse brevity -- just back 



Here are some quotes to consider:



>From FORUM ANSWERS







EFFECT OF WAR --- KAMA - LOCA





Q.: What was the effect of our civil war on the astral plane, and
reflexively on ourselves?



W.Q.J.--To answer this Question aright would require the powers of an Adept
who could see into the astral light and measure the exact results. 



But SUDDEN DEATHS IN WAR are not the same in effect as the killing of a
murderer or a wicked man who has violated the law. 



The men destroyed in battle are engaged in the moving of troops, the
arrangement of batteries, firing of volleys, and using the sword. Their
attention is almost wholly thus occupied, and when they are suddenly killed
it is with this idea of present attack and defence fixed in their nature. 



The ASTRAL WARRIOR confines himself to the repetition of attack
and defence, 



If we suppose them as lingering in the astral plane, then they will there
continue the same actions which occupied them at the time of death. 



But the CRIMINAL, who has led a criminal life, who is full of evil passions,
and who steps off into the other world with a heart full of passion and
revenge, will linger on the other plane full of those unsatisfied desires,
and not overmastered, as is the warrior, by a single strong idea. .the
CRIMINAL seeks to satisfy his revenge and bad instincts in general



The ASTRAL WARRIOR confines himself to the repetition of attack and defence,




while the CRIMINAL seeks to satisfy his revenge and bad instincts in
general. 



These considerations seem to me to point out a difference. I do not pretend
to answer the whole question, however, as to the effect of war acting from
other planes.





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VIOLENT DEATH -- SUICIDE -- MURDER





It is well known that after violent death of the body the principles above
the material do not separate as in other cases, do not go to Devachan, do
not dissipate. 



In a case of natural ordinary demise the astral body dissipates, so does
Kama-rupa; with the other cases it is not so. 





SUICIDE





P 24 The man who kills himself is not really dead. Only his
body is dead; he remains a living man in the astral spheres close to us,
minus a body. 



If left alone he comes to his end in due course, but a long way off,
generally measured by the length of years he would have lived if he had not
raised hand against himself. 



But if he is drawn into a medium, he is given a new attraction which ties
him to earth and makes him drunk, as it were, with the fumes of life. This
retards him and causes him to live long, long years in Kama Loka, and
curses, too, the one who draws him thus further down. 



How does "the orderly working of Karma" go against this? It is his Karma
that made him a suicide, that put it in the power of mediums to disturb him.
It is exactly the case of a man who drinks to excess, and who thus puts
himself where he may be harmed by other evil influences. 





ACCIDENTAL DEATH





P. 25 Also in the case of accidental death. Karma made by the
same person decrees that he shall so punish himself and so lay himself open
to all the consequences that may follow. 



That is no reason why we should ignore the law and pay a dollar to gratify
our whims and at the same time hurt a fellow-being. 





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DEATH PENALTY





Q.: As Karma punishes all sins, is it right or desirable that human
laws should punish crime by death or imprisonment?



W.Q.J.-My individual opinion upon 



P. 29 ".the death penalty is that it is neither right nor desirable 



that human laws should punish crime by death, but this answer presupposes in
the race such a knowledge of proper conduct and a constant practice of the
same that every human being is a perfect law unto himself and for all, and
that no laws are needed because all know and keep the laws of morality and
nature. 



As, however, men as yet are very imperfect and are struggling to find the
right rule of conduct, laws are necessary for evil-doers. Here, then, arises
the question whether society is benefited by law imposing the death penalty,
and as to that many able writers speak on one side and many on the other. To
my mind it appears that 



p. 29 ".the crime of murder has not diminished because of capital
punishment, nor do I think any law will ever stamp out that offense. 



Indeed, I know that the majority of Theosophists regard capital punishment
as a greater evil than that which it is directed against. But as
Theosophists we have not much [ 30 ] 



to do with such a question, since it lies in the domain of government. 



P. 30 Our duty is to teach those ethics and that philosophy which alone
will remedy the evil by raising men above the possibility of committing
crime or becoming amenable to law. 



If we waste our energies in attempting reforms on the surface, either in law
or in politics, a great opportunity will slip away before we know it. 



The remaining query is upon the subject of punitive law in general, and on
that my view is that the question put flies wild of any point, because even
these very laws enacted for the punishment of evil-doers are themselves the
product of Karma. 



The state of the race which evinces crime is due to its Karma, hence the
present system, the criminals who fill our jails, the judiciary and the
executive departments administering the laws, are all products of Karma. 



It therefore follows that where, through man-made laws, offenders are fined
or imprisoned, such punishments are those of Karma. It thus appears to me
that the question is wholly one relating to reform in a mere social or
political institution.





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Hope this helps (unwell hence brevity. sorry)





Dallas



======================================================





-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy 

Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:42 AM
To: dalval14@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: CAPITAL PUNISHMENT -- KAMA-LOKA



Dear Dallas,



Last night they executed a man named Stanley Williams in California, for the

murder of 4 people in the 1970's.



I was watching a talk show where they were speaking to the family members of

the murdered, some of the people involved in the case, and those who carry

out the death sentences in this country. I personally am very much against

the death penalty. I was however struck by the fact that people seem to see

death as a punishment and as justice, not as punishment defered, or justice

defered. But worse I saw a blood lust in many of them, and it deeply

disturbed me.



I realize that I must see the world through unconcerned eyes feeling neither

attraction nor repulsion. However, I can't help but feel a deep concern and

great sorrow. More and more everyday I see my country becoming more

polarized, and I see religion becoming a major issue, dividing us, and

destroying us from within. It's not just here either but seems to be

escallating all over the world. Brother against brother and all in the name

of "god'.



Why?



As always, warmest regards,



Cin







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