Theos-Talk Archives (August 2005 Message tt00209)

Dear Jerry,
thanks for your answer.

=>As for GdeP's teaching on the seven fold constitution, it does not
contradict HPB or the Mahatma letters in any way that I have detected.

I came to the same conclusions after many years of in-depth study.

=>As for divine souls: GdeP of course recognized sexual differences in the
physical body and the linga sharira, but the higher principles do not
have sexual attributes and, they are part of all of our constitutions.
Also, the idea of male and female divine souls is not a part of GdeP's
teachings, as far as I know. He also does not endorse the notion of
"soul mates" that we find in new age philosophy.

Also agreed. He rejected the twin soul doctrine. In Germany it is spread at 
present by Leadbeater fanatic Dr. Peter Michel, who published two or three 
paperbacks about it.

=>As for whether or not GdeP specifically said that Grace should not be
Leader: I have not heard this.

As I said, it was oral communication from Elsie Benjamin, a first hand eye 
witness as GdeP talked about it with her.
In Berlin all know that.
She reported many interesting things: The story about HPB's occult ring, 
that Annie Besant really believed she was in possession of it, the quarrel 
in a British Lodge around 1895 about the anti-Judge conspiracy, where her 
father played an important role to make the right decision in favour of the 
innocent and persecuted William Q. Judge.

=>However, I do have some documents here
that indicate to my mind, that GdeP did not expect any successor to come
to take his place--whether that be Grace, or anyone else.

It seems so, but that a successor might come (rather from outer) was not 
debarred.
>From the documents about the Conger-Long-Knoche conspiracy against Emmett 
Small, Iverson Harris etc., which Ken Small published in Theosophical 
History (only a small portion of relevant documents about that tragedy) - 
which was similar scheduled as the conspiracy against Judge 40 years before, 
as Blavatsky student Henry T. Edge point out so well - it can be seen that 
chelas were set aside and trained for a special task: to recognize the next 
messenger.

Elsie Benjamin reported that he - together with Travor Barker (who has left 
the Adyar TS and joined the Point Loma TS in 1931) - was withdrawn suddenly 
from above - as worried about in his 1935 last will - because of the new 
development in WWII and the gain of Bolshevism.
That a messias comes or comes not it not a question whether the messias has 
a good mind or not, but whether there is an audiency ready.
The way to know whether the audience is ready or not is the same as in the 
school: You will be tested. If you have learned your lessions, you go a 
class higher. The pupils GdeP left in Covina were tested.
The end is known. But it was not fate which forced them to do what they did. 
They had their free will.

=> On the other
hand, as far as I know, Grace never demanded that anyone accept her as
"Leader," in the sense that KT used it, as condition of membership. She
never demanded it of me or my wife. Under Grace, things at Pasadena
changed dramatically.

What else should she have done? It was droven wild Conger (COloumb, COllins, 
COues, COnger, the 4th CO in a row, in 1946, 40 years after Judge was beaten 
out of his tulku body) himself, who, after his exoteric revolt against the 
Esotericists "suceeded" with 60:40 (?), noticed in the aftermath that he, a 
lay chela of the first degree, not even aware, that higher degrees existed - 
as Ken Small's published documents proof - was not able to fill out his new 
post, which he took over by violence, and to teach an esoteric class. 
Consequently, he closed his fake E.S. in 1947. 40 years after lay chela 
Annie Besant also closed in 1897 (for the first time...) her fake E.S. It 
seems, both Besant/Leadbeater and Conger/Long were on the same astral track. 
Interesting side note that both parties where involved in the political 
conspiracy against Germany ("Germany must perish!" movement of 1870 etc.). 
Interesting also Katherine Tingley' note in "Searchlight", that the Jesuits 
in Rome - who rule in Rome the Christians - were trying to infiltrate the 
Point Loma TS with their spies in order to break it up from within, but that 
she knows their plans well and so long as she is leader, no Jesuit spy will 
have success.

=>As for the homosexuality issue: I have never seen any text where GdeP
condemns it.

I have such a text, became it from my old Lodge President around 1992, but 
stored it elsewhere and still need to rediscover it (as some other things, 
magazines, too!).
Several others here know this text also, also remember Elsie Benjamin's 
reports about it.

=>Grace Knoche, Kirby Van Mater, Emmett Small, Boris
DeZirkoff, and Gordon Plummer were all GdeP's students, and none of them
ever said anything negative about homosexuality in my presence, or on
any recorded talks that I have heard.

I believe it. You will know for yourself that they never forced anyone. 
Perhaps you should have asked them explicitly.

=>Lina Psaltis, who was Boris'
student, had her own study group which I was privileged to have been a
part of for eighteen years. One member of this study group was
homosexual. Everyone was aware of it. Yet neither Lina or anyone else in
that group considered him less worthy in any way.

Elsie Benjamin reported about a Point Loma TS resident, who was a gay, too. 
I forgot his name, but it was a known name.
But that abrogates not that in the higher classes (3rd degree?) they were 
told that the occult doctrines oppose homosexuality as it is against the 
laws of nature and a result of bad karma.
In the Catholic church there are also homosexual priests. But that does not 
mean that Christianity supports homosexuality.
In Hamburg, Germany, there exists a Gelugpa- school, affirmed by the Dalai 
Lama. In the Lamrim class there are some gays, too (to my surprise). But I 
do not conclude that the Dalai Lama is a gay or that Buddhism supports it.
I once knew a Hamburg theosophical member, who rejected reincarnation and 
yet she was a member as all. I also know some members who love to eat 
animals. But I do not conclude that Theosophy supports animal eating. 
Katherine Tingley in her jail work invited prisoners to join the TS and come 
to events, including murders. But I do not conclude that Theosophy supports 
murder.

=>As for Grace's part in the 1951 event: It is true that there were deep
wounds, mistakes were made, and that the people involved, on both sides
of the question, had to live with those wounds and those mistakes.
However, I must say this: I had a chance to become very close to Emmett
over the course of the last twenty years of his life. From that
experience, I can say this with absolute certainty: The one thing that
Emmett wanted to see was for the wrongs to be resolved, the wounds to be
healed, and for the Theosophical Movement to once again become a unified
force for the betterment of humanity. To get a feel for Emmett's
attitudes on this, you might look through the issues of the Eclectic
Theosophist from 1984s through the end where he worked so hard to
promote the Theosophical Networking movement. An idea that G.de P. also
tried to promote in 1930.

That is quite true. In one discussion in the beginning of his fraternization 
work there were some sceptics who asked how it may become possible to 
co-operate with Adyar people, which believe strange things directly opposed 
to the theosophical teachings and whether the Point Loma theosophists are 
now forced to believe the astral body poppycock of Leadbeater, the cant 
about Masters etc.
GdeP replied in effect something like that he does not work for 
frazernization based on lies, but based on truth.

To me a wound cannot heal when one side continues to spread the untruth and 
the other side is forced not defend the truth. Such basis would be sect 
networking rather than theosophical networking - if Divine Wisdom means 
anything at all today. I think that Emmett had also this same policy as 
GdeP. At least I read it out of his "Eclectic". To my favor he went in one 
or two cases too far (in portraying Annie Besant in a very mild light), but 
although he worked for fraternization, he raised several times in his 
"Eclectic" the question about GdeP's "Encyclopedia" and his protest letters 
to Grace F. Knoche.
During the 1980'ies suffering Emmett seemed to have been not in high hopes 
for a true spiritual regeneration, otherwise he would not have tried in his 
old days to launch a new TS. He dropped the plan after his last flight to 
Europe, The Netherlands, Germany, when he realized that the Point Loma 
groups have been crystallized, too.

All groups are today degenerated. The spirit is gone. The Theosophists do 
not understand their Theosophy, as a foe author once wrote to me. And I must 
admit that he is right. OK, GdeP explained well, that the TM is exoteric 
like the Greec mystery schools were. One cannot assume, that an exoteric 
bodies with people, who perhaps for the first or second life hear the 
tenets, can carry on higher doctrines.
But how can a Network based on emotion or brain-mind be a success? Or ist 
hat all what we can reach today and it would be better than nothing? The way 
The Quest magazine takes over KT as if the Point Loma Mystery school was a 
promoter of pacifism, whereas the initiates of all ages only condemned 
unholy (selfish) wars, is strange do me.
The Adyar people seem to have a talent to misunderstand each and all. What 
to make with them?

In the Adyar TS there are still the most idiotic things promoted. TPH still 
publishes silly new age and psychology books. What would HPB say?
The Pasadena TS still promotes the twisted and brainwashing Donant pamphlet 
about the Conger/Long conspiracy, as well a a full text online version.
I do not think that this policy of Pasadena is healing wounds or that it can 
be a basis for co-operation. Or I am too silly??
Theosophists still loyal to GdeP, Boris, Emmett, Elsie, Iverson, the Helens, 
Gordon, Geoffrey etc. should consider to publish some more of the withheld 
historical documents.

Before the TM unites in spirit or physical or both, it needs an intellectual 
and spiritual upheaval - before the party is over.
As you, Jerry, know several theosophical groups and individuals of all 
lineages, what please is in your humble opinion needed most?
Which steps must be taken?

A look upon the groups in Germany is discouraging to me. Am I too exacting? 
Are we now but in a lower cycle position and in some decades there will be 
up wind?
15 years of prayer, explanation resulted in nothing. The bigot fanatics, 
text manipulators, liers, hypcrites are everywhere in power and they 
co-operate, that in no lineage a man (or woman) comes up with average 
education and/or spiritual insight. It is only a negative co-operation, to 
hinder the good and welfare of the TM. Better destroy all when not I but the 
other gets the monopoly. I am speaking not from myself, but generally. Only 
crazy people, imposters are welcome. No offsprings are allowed, all what is 
young is evil, except a young one comes (and 40 or 50 is considered as 
young!) who is intelligent as Goofy and practical as Donald. He/she will be 
tolerated.

Would it not be more honest to the world to close these groups? The new 
chance of 1945 was not used. On the contrary, they became much more stupid, 
hypocritical and militant against anything high.
Frank