Theos-Talk Archives (May 2005 Message tt00754)

Dear Morten,



Please do not post my comments in any site because I posted it here following a series of discussions which made me to give some extreme samples to make my point. If published isolated it can cause a completely wrong view.



Well I read your long e-mail with many words, I hate to say that... I think I read such comment from somebody else to somebody else but I do not remember who...



Well the thing I can say is that in Adyar every morning is celebrated a Hindu ritual in the Hindu temple; there is a Muslin temple, a Buddhist temple, a Christian temple etc. So it is not only the Christian chapel working there. Of course in the Muslin temple at the time I was there there was not anybody to make rituals, but I am sure if somebody would offer himself for that would be allowed without major problems.



Now the question of neutrality you are entitled to hold your views as much me my views. If you compare the T.S Adyar with many other societies you will see that there is a great level of neutrality. 



One thing I agree with you and recently I exchanged some posts about it, and this of course you did not mention in this e-mail but in others. I think there is a great need for theosophy to enter Middle East, I was even during sometime trying to find someone interested in theosophy which speak Arabian in order to make a theosophical site in the Arabian language. But my efforts were useless. 





Best wishes,

Erica



"M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote:
Hallo Erica and all,

My views are:

I think you email offers some good points.

The below is offered as some of my views.
Please do not consider this as an attack. I just find that the truth need to 
be followed.
Feel free to respond with some wise words on the below.

1.
But I disagree on this one:
"Yeah because if the T.S. starts taking official positions pros or
contra it will be necessary also to do the same with all the others.
No dear this can't happen and I think for the sake of the T.S. as a
society the wisest position is taken, that is of neutrality. All its
members are free to discuss to write and to choose which position
they are going to take. Let everyone to judge by their own but do
not condemn others for their personal choices, preferences and
religious positions."

On neutrality.
If it were only true, but it is not - and I think you know it.
A position of neutrality is also a position. But even TS Adyar
is not neutral. I repeat - not neutral.

The TS booksshop Quest Books has an online webshop in english. We know 
english
is one of the worlds best known languages. We know that this webshop
sells a number of books - and that it do not sell some other books.
The emphasis which this webshop has on books being sold and
not being sold. And how each book is being presented does not
show me that TS Adyar is neutral.

The same goes with the yearly Catalog.
Its yearly Catalog is filled with some books - and some books are left out.
This years Catalog is filled with a lot of popular books on theosophy.
There is hardly any room given to the teachings on AtmaVidya
in the sense known as Atma=Brahman, or Adwaita teachings.
One of the books bein sold places the historical Shamballah in the 
Himalayas - and not at Balkh.
Selling books by Robert Elwood also tells us all something.
http://www.lcc.cc/tlc/lxvi1/mother.htm
The development of this particular Catalog during the Years is
perhaps also interesting to look through.

A similar view one reaches when reading the TS Adyar website.
- The Shrines at the TS Headquarters-
"Church of St Michael and All Angels - This is an attractive, well-appointed 
church where services according to the rites of the Liberal Catholic Church 
are held on Sunday mornings and other important days."
The continueing emphasis on Christianity togehter with Buddhism
marks the TS Adyar as not being neutral at all.
http://ts-adyar.org/headquarters.html

So please Erica let us not delude ourselves that TS Adyar is neutral,
because that will easily turn into a heavyweight lie.

2.
Quest Books tells us the following about it self:
"Quest Books is the imprint of the Theosophical Publishing House, the 
publishing arm of the Theosophical Society in America. This organization, 
with 150 branches nationwide, is part of the International Theosophical 
Society founded in New York in 1875 with present headquarters in Adyar, 
Madras, India.

Located at the national Society's headquarters in Wheaton, IL, Quest Books 
is dedicated to publishing works compatible with the aims of the parent 
organization:

To promote fellowship among all peoples of the world and to encourage the 
study of religion, philosophy, and science, so that we may better understand 
ourselves and our place in the Universe. The Society stands for complete 
freedom of individual search and belief."
http://www.questbooks.net/aboutquest.cfm

Allright, but how do you do that with such a stance or promotings of 
literature.
The content of words in the Subject Index at the Quest Bookshop reveals
a whole lot to the Seeker about, what kind of policy the TS Adyar is 
promoting.

Some names are givne in the subject index.
Here they are: Geoffrey Hodson, C. W. Leadbeater, Annie Besant, H. P. 
Blavatsky, Juddi Krishnamurti, H. S. Olcott, Subba T. Row.
These 7 authors must be very important to TS Adyar and America - else they 
would not have been given in the Subject Index.

The fact that NO later notable authors within TS or outside of it has 
reached it to the subject index - tells us all something.
Namely that Theosophy very much has come to a stand still since the authors 
in the above died.
Either this or the leaders do not know much about promoting theosophy.

The fact that the bookshop now allows itself to sell a few books on sufism 
calms
my a heart a bit, but only a bit. We talk about five boks or so. The book by 
Rober Frager is helpful, no doubt there.
It disappoints me, that Robert Ellwoods writings is being sold - while 
neither of
the great promoters of sufism in the west Gurdjieff or Idries Shah is given 
any space .
But, perhaps Ernest Scotts "The People of the Secret" would be more 
eatable.
And 24 books on Christianity - while Islam is given 8 books in the subject 
index. Only 16 books on Buddhism
and 26 on Hinduism while a great number of them are books on The Bhagavad 
Gita.
Judaism is given merely three books as if this would make the phallic 
problems within the TS leadership go away.
Interesting numbers to think about.



3. On dark spots
Erica wrote:
"The history of the T.S. has not only dark spots related to CWL's
life but also to its founders and many other members. And that is
why all of them were humans as we are and as such mistakes are a
natural thing. "

I think we also have to look a the severity of each of the individual dark 
spots.
Some are more important than others, when we talk about promoting theosophy.
But why hide them? Indded why?

I think it is good that you made this short resume of the mistakes.
I might even post them with some additional comments on my own website, 
which is being rearranged.



from
M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Erica Letzerich" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: Theos-World Re: What one sees vs. what really happened (reply to 
Erica)


> Dear Perry,
>
> Let's not complicate things that in fact are simple and obvious.
> Which information related to the subject I approached you consider
> valid? To know who are or who are going to be Bishops of the LCC? Go
> to the site of the LCC and ask there for such information.
>
> I am not questioning the contribution Dr. Tillett gave to the
> Theosophical History in his book. But I do question the open and
> deliberately expressions of hostility, which for some may pass
> unnoticed but for other more acquainted with some situations is
> obvious.
>
> All the members of the Theosophical Society are very well informed
> about the controversies related to Leadbeater. Actually when I first
> become a member such was probably one of the first information I
> had. Even here in Greece that members of the T.S. are somehow
> completely disconnected from the reality of the T.S. in the world
> and have a very poor theosophical literature translated to Greek
> they know about such controversies.
>
> Recently Dr. Algeo published some letters related to the life of
> Blavatsky. Him and others involved in this publication are now
> targets of endless critics and attacks from the side of the
> Blavatskyan fundamentalists.
>
> The history of the T.S. has not only dark spots related to CWL's
> life but also to its founders and many other members. And that is
> why all of them were humans as we are and as such mistakes are a
> natural thing. Judge declares to have received mediunic messages of
> Blavatsky. While Blavatsky declared she would never contact anyone
> after she leaves this world.
>
> The truth is not hidden and it is clear exposed in many books and
> many writings, and most probably more truths are going to be brought
> to light. So it is easy to stick in CWL and his church, while
> refusing to see all the other gaps that exist.
>
>
> "Would you agree that if certain verifiable information comes to
> light that calls into question the veracity of a prominent writers
> information then the society is morally and duty bound to bring this
> to the members attention even if it has repercussions for the
> society?"
>
> Now which official position would you like the T.S to take? To
> inform all the members that C.W.L. was a mythomaniac, that Judge was
> a liar, that Blavatsky offered herself to be a spy and had a child
> so she never died as a virgin, that Olcott turned his back to
> Blavatsky in a moment of great need, that Besant had an affair with
> Bernard Shaw and was influenced by CWL, that Arundale wrote articles
> praising Hitler before the II war start, that Geoffrey Hodson made a
> clairvoyant description of the greatness of the Hitler aura.
>
> Yeah because if the T.S. starts taking official positions pros or
> contra it will be necessary also to do the same with all the others.
> No dear this can't happen and I think for the sake of the T.S. as a
> society the wisest position is taken, that is of neutrality. All its
> members are free to discuss to write and to choose which position
> they are going to take. Let everyone to judge by their own but do
> not condemn others for their personal choices, preferences and
> religious positions.
>
> Erica
>
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles" 

> wrote:
>> Hello Erica,
>> I cant help but feel that there is a bit of a blind spot here on
> the
>> issue of valid criticism.
>>
>> Would you agree that if certain verifiable information comes to
>> light that calls into question the veracity of a prominent writers
>> information then the society is morally and duty bound to bring
> this
>> to the members attention even if it has repercussions for the
>> society?
>>
>> To do this would be noble action not one of shame.
>>
>> Dr Tillett has brought very relevant and important facts to bear
> on
>> the life of Bishop Leadbeater, facts that have important
>> implications for those who read his books.
>>
>> As I see it lack of critical comment is not necessarily a sign of
>> virtue it can actually be a simple symptom of co dependence and a
>> dis functional aversion to valid and needed rational debate.
>>
>> In families this type of aversion can lead to extremely
>> disempowering and destructive behaviour as any councillor will
> tell
>> you.
>>
>> A victim of sexual abuse by a family member for example may be
> told
>> not to say anything as they will cause friction and "disharmony"
> in
>> the family.
>> It can lead to a conspiracy of silence and allow the most
> outrageous
>> behaviour to go unchallenged and spread greater disharmony.
>> (see M Scott Peck's book : People of the lie)
>>
>> This can lead to a deadening of conscience and in theosophical
> terms
>> mean blocking the impulses from the higher ethical and truthful
>> energies of Buddhi.
>> Rather than warm fuzzies the higher Self impulses can cause great
>> upset and turmoil for the personality.
>>
>> Remember the motto of the society is "there is no Religion higher
>> than Truth".
>> This is a very high demand and all of us fall short of it.
>> However I do feel we need to try and promote it as best we can.
>> You do seem like a person who is genuinely looking to promote what
>> is right and true.
>>
>> It is my offering here that the above points can go by unchecked
>> sometimes and am interested in your comments and point of view.
>> Regards
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Perry
>>
>>
>> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Letzerich"
>> wrote:
>> > I might reconsider my statement about the animosity against
> Adyar
>> > members.
>> >
>> > I know as much you know that there is a general prejudice of
> some
>> > persons towards members of the LCC. What was the point of Dr.
>> Tillet
>> > mentioning that Pedro will be elected a Bishop of the LCC?
>> >
>> > Dr. Tillet not happy went on, saying that Pedro is an employee
> of
>> > Adyar, but he did not mention that before an employee he was and
>> is
>> > a theosophist dedicated to the cause, without any material
>> > possession and the gain of being employee of Adyar does not
> confer
>> > anyone any material status. On the contrary a series of
> sacrifices
>> > and losses. But of course Dr. Tillets posts were a try to
>> depreciate
>> > Pedro's arguments using his status in the T.S. Adyar and the
> fact
>> > that he is connected to the LCC as factors that could undermine
>> his
>> > ability to see things and to think. I think this is clear.
>> >
>> > You mentioned that:
>> > "As one who has no dog in this fight, and who likes Pedro very
>> much,
>> > I still have to tell you that he started this particular line of
>> > attack and counterattack. Again, what you see is through some
>> > organizational blinders."
>> >
>> > Well below you may read the normal order of the events.
>> >
>> > gregory@
>> > Tue May 24, 2005 4:07 am
>> > "A correspondent from Perth (Western Australia) advises me that
>> > Pedro is to be made a bishop of the Liberal Catholic Church
> later
>> > this year by the Church's Presiding Bishop, Ian Hooker." Dr
>> Gregory
>> > Tillett
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/26748
>> >
>> >
>> > prmoliveira" 

>> > Date: Thu May 26, 2005 4:11 am
>> >
>> > "Few of his readers perhaps know that Dr Tillet was a Clergy in
>> Minor
>> > Orders (Cleric) in the Australian Province of the LCC for several
>> > years and contributed articles to its magazine ("Communion")."
>> > pedro
>> >
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/26793
>> >
>> > Erica
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson"
>> > wrote:
>> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Erica Letzerich
>> > 
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > Dear Krishtar,
>> > >
>> > > > First of all I think that it is clear that there are a high
>> > level
>> > > of animosity expressed towards the members and dedicated
> fellows
>> > > connected to the T.S. Adyar. I do not see any members of the
>> T.S.
>> > > Adyar within this forum trying to impose their ideas towards
>> > others;
>> > > on the contrary they defend their point of views with balance.
>> > > >
>> > > Dear Erica,
>> > >
>> > > I think this is profoundly wrong on two counts. Count up all
>> the
>> > > attacks on non-Adyar Theosophical organizations emanating from
>> > Daniel
>> > > and Anand, and then reconsider the above statement.
>> > >
>> > > Secondly, consider that many of us with highly critical
>> attitudes
>> > > toward the Adyar TS and some of its leaders past and present
>> might
>> > > have very positive attitudes toward most of the members we
> have
>> > > known. (And some of the leaders, e.g. John Coats about whom
>> nary
>> > a
>> > > bad word has ever been written here AFAIK.) I can certainly
> say
>> > that
>> > > for myself, and would suspect that several others here would
>> agree.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Nobody is to be condemned to be a priest, to be an employee
> of
>> > the
>> > > T.S. Adyar or not. To use the personal choices of others,
> their
>> > > religious preferences or their support for an author or other
> to
>> > try
>> > > to depreciate their point of view and opinions it is not a
> fair
>> > game.
>> > > I really did not see the point of Dr. Tillet announcing here
> in
>> > this
>> > > forum that Pedro will be a future Bishop of the LCC.
>> > > >
>> > > As one who has no dog in this fight, and who likes Pedro very
>> > much, I
>> > > still have to tell you that he started this particular line of
>> > attack
>> > > and counterattack. Again, what you see is through some
>> > > organizational blinders.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > What he is trying to prove with these posts that Pedro's
>> > opinions
>> > > have not value because he is a priest of the LCC? Better try
>> other
>> > > arguments because these just express how small some people can
>> act
>> > in
>> > > order to depreciate others.
>> > > >
>> > > Please re-read that in light of the initial post about Tillett
>> by
>> > > Pedro. And please don't think I wish to deprecate you; I
> think
>> > > you're generally one of the more fair and openminded
>> participants
>> > > here. But you've made two black/white blaming/excusing
>> judgments
>> > > here that are wrong -- WAY wrong-- on both counts.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > >
>> > > Paul
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > krishtar wrote:
>> > > > Hello Erica
>> > > >
>> > > > It is a pity that much of what we have been acquainted,
>> > > familiarized to, in terms of information about many subjects
> in
>> > the
>> > > Theosophical background and history has been under the form of
>> all
>> > > this animosity, isn#900;t it?
>> > > > People tend to become very literate but sometimes I gess the
>> > lack
>> > > of compassion screams at a higher level in the same proportion.
>> > > > Although I feel not comfortable to judge anyone#900;s
>> bahaviour,
>> > I
>> > > cannot deny that people are again hurting and being hurt back
> in
>> > the
>> > > list.
>> > > >
>> > > > Krishtar
>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > > > From: Erica Letzerich
>> > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>> > > > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:01 AM
>> > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Ecclesiastical associations?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Guys why do I have the impression you love each other so
>> much...
>> > > >
>> > > > Love is in the air
>> > > > Oh oh oh
>> > > > Oh oh oh
>> > > > Love is in the air
>> > > >
>> > > > Erica
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > gregory@z... wrote:
>> > > > Pedro's reference to a folly of my adolescence (i.e.
>> membership
>> > for
>> > > a time of
>> > > > the Liberal Catholic Church)is hardly a revelation of any
>> > > significance. It is
>> > > > explicitly noted in my biography of Leadbeater: p.viii.
>> > > > As for adding "ecclesiastical titles", what ecclesiastical
>> title
>> > is
>> > > held by
>> > > > someone at the lowest level of the Minor Orders of the
> Liberal
>> > > catholic
>> > > > Church??
>> > > > Should all who offer comments declare, in advance, any
>> > memberships
>> > > or
>> > > > affiliations? If so, why has Pedro not declared that he is a
>> > priest
>> > > of the
>> > > > LCC, and about to become a bishop? that he is an employee of
>> the
>> > > (Adyar)
>> > > > Theosophical Society? It could be argued that these are
>> relevant
>> > > > considerations in evaluating the arguments he is making
> (and,
>> in
>> > > particular,
>> > > > his refusal to give clear responses to questions about
>> > Leadbeater).
>> > > > Is he a member of the ES? the ER? of Co-Masonry? should we
>> check
>> > > out his time
>> > > > working at Adyar?
>> > > > Perhaps we should we seek a complete curriculum vitae of
>> > everyone
>> > > posting on
>> > > > the site?
>> > > > Does anyone care? I certainly don't. My assessment of
>> arguments
>> > is
>> > > based on
>> > > > the arguments themselves, not on the present or past
>> > associations
>> > > of the
>> > > > person expressing the opinion. But "shooting the messenger"
> is
>> > an
>> > > old
>> > > > political tactic. The gullible are often impressed.
>> > > >
>> > > > Dr Gregory Tillett
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ---------------------------------
>> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
>> > > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site!
>> > > >
>> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ---------------------------------
>> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
>> > > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site!
>> > > >
>> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 




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