Theos-Talk Archives (May 2005 Message tt00724)

Dear Perry,

Let's not complicate things that in fact are simple and obvious. 
Which information related to the subject I approached you consider 
valid? To know who are or who are going to be Bishops of the LCC? Go 
to the site of the LCC and ask there for such information. 

I am not questioning the contribution Dr. Tillett gave to the 
Theosophical History in his book. But I do question the open and 
deliberately expressions of hostility, which for some may pass 
unnoticed but for other more acquainted with some situations is 
obvious. 

All the members of the Theosophical Society are very well informed 
about the controversies related to Leadbeater. Actually when I first 
become a member such was probably one of the first information I 
had. Even here in Greece that members of the T.S. are somehow 
completely disconnected from the reality of the T.S. in the world 
and have a very poor theosophical literature translated to Greek 
they know about such controversies.

Recently Dr. Algeo published some letters related to the life of 
Blavatsky. Him and others involved in this publication are now 
targets of endless critics and attacks from the side of the 
Blavatskyan fundamentalists. 

The history of the T.S. has not only dark spots related to CWL's 
life but also to its founders and many other members. And that is 
why all of them were humans as we are and as such mistakes are a 
natural thing. Judge declares to have received mediunic messages of 
Blavatsky. While Blavatsky declared she would never contact anyone 
after she leaves this world. 

The truth is not hidden and it is clear exposed in many books and 
many writings, and most probably more truths are going to be brought 
to light. So it is easy to stick in CWL and his church, while 
refusing to see all the other gaps that exist.


"Would you agree that if certain verifiable information comes to 
light that calls into question the veracity of a prominent writers 
information then the society is morally and duty bound to bring this 
to the members attention even if it has repercussions for the 
society?"

Now which official position would you like the T.S to take? To 
inform all the members that C.W.L. was a mythomaniac, that Judge was 
a liar, that Blavatsky offered herself to be a spy and had a child 
so she never died as a virgin, that Olcott turned his back to 
Blavatsky in a moment of great need, that Besant had an affair with 
Bernard Shaw and was influenced by CWL, that Arundale wrote articles 
praising Hitler before the II war start, that Geoffrey Hodson made a 
clairvoyant description of the greatness of the Hitler aura. 

Yeah because if the T.S. starts taking official positions pros or 
contra it will be necessary also to do the same with all the others. 
No dear this can't happen and I think for the sake of the T.S. as a 
society the wisest position is taken, that is of neutrality. All its 
members are free to discuss to write and to choose which position 
they are going to take. Let everyone to judge by their own but do 
not condemn others for their personal choices, preferences and 
religious positions.

Erica 


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles" <perrycoles@y...> 
wrote:
> Hello Erica,
> I cant help but feel that there is a bit of a blind spot here on 
the 
> issue of valid criticism.
> 
> Would you agree that if certain verifiable information comes to 
> light that calls into question the veracity of a prominent writers 
> information then the society is morally and duty bound to bring 
this 
> to the members attention even if it has repercussions for the 
> society?
> 
> To do this would be noble action not one of shame.
> 
> Dr Tillett has brought very relevant and important facts to bear 
on 
> the life of Bishop Leadbeater, facts that have important 
> implications for those who read his books.
> 
> As I see it lack of critical comment is not necessarily a sign of 
> virtue it can actually be a simple symptom of co dependence and a 
> dis functional aversion to valid and needed rational debate.
> 
> In families this type of aversion can lead to extremely 
> disempowering and destructive behaviour as any councillor will 
tell 
> you.
> 
> A victim of sexual abuse by a family member for example may be 
told 
> not to say anything as they will cause friction and "disharmony" 
in 
> the family.
> It can lead to a conspiracy of silence and allow the most 
outrageous 
> behaviour to go unchallenged and spread greater disharmony.
> (see M Scott Peck's book : People of the lie)
> 
> This can lead to a deadening of conscience and in theosophical 
terms 
> mean blocking the impulses from the higher ethical and truthful 
> energies of Buddhi.
> Rather than warm fuzzies the higher Self impulses can cause great 
> upset and turmoil for the personality.
> 
> Remember the motto of the society is "there is no Religion higher 
> than Truth".
> This is a very high demand and all of us fall short of it.
> However I do feel we need to try and promote it as best we can.
> You do seem like a person who is genuinely looking to promote what 
> is right and true.
> 
> It is my offering here that the above points can go by unchecked 
> sometimes and am interested in your comments and point of view.
> Regards
> 
> Regards
> 
> Perry
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Letzerich" 
> <eletzerich@y...> wrote:
> > I might reconsider my statement about the animosity against 
Adyar 
> > members. 
> > 
> > I know as much you know that there is a general prejudice of 
some 
> > persons towards members of the LCC. What was the point of Dr. 
> Tillet 
> > mentioning that Pedro will be elected a Bishop of the LCC?
> > 
> > Dr. Tillet not happy went on, saying that Pedro is an employee 
of 
> > Adyar, but he did not mention that before an employee he was and 
> is 
> > a theosophist dedicated to the cause, without any material 
> > possession and the gain of being employee of Adyar does not 
confer 
> > anyone any material status. On the contrary a series of 
sacrifices 
> > and losses. But of course Dr. Tillets posts were a try to 
> depreciate 
> > Pedro's arguments using his status in the T.S. Adyar and the 
fact 
> > that he is connected to the LCC as factors that could undermine 
> his 
> > ability to see things and to think. I think this is clear.
> > 
> > You mentioned that:
> > "As one who has no dog in this fight, and who likes Pedro very 
> much, 
> > I still have to tell you that he started this particular line of 
> > attack and counterattack. Again, what you see is through some
> > organizational blinders."
> > 
> > Well below you may read the normal order of the events. 
> > 
> > gregory@
> > Tue May 24, 2005 4:07 am
> > "A correspondent from Perth (Western Australia) advises me that 
> > Pedro is to be made a bishop of the Liberal Catholic Church 
later 
> > this year by the Church's Presiding Bishop, Ian Hooker." Dr 
> Gregory 
> > Tillett
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/26748
> > 
> > 
> > prmoliveira" <prmoliveira@> 
> > Date: Thu May 26, 2005 4:11 am
> > 
> > "Few of his readers perhaps know that Dr Tillet was a Clergy in 
> Minor
> > Orders (Cleric) in the Australian Province of the LCC for several
> > years and contributed articles to its magazine ("Communion")." 
> > pedro
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/26793
> > 
> > Erica
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson" 
> > <kpauljohnson@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Erica Letzerich 
> > <eletzerich@y...> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > Dear Krishtar,
> > > 
> > > > First of all I think that it is clear that there are a high 
> > level 
> > > of animosity expressed towards the members and dedicated 
fellows 
> > > connected to the T.S. Adyar. I do not see any members of the 
> T.S. 
> > > Adyar within this forum trying to impose their ideas towards 
> > others; 
> > > on the contrary they defend their point of views with balance. 
> > > > 
> > > Dear Erica,
> > > 
> > > I think this is profoundly wrong on two counts. Count up all 
> the 
> > > attacks on non-Adyar Theosophical organizations emanating from 
> > Daniel 
> > > and Anand, and then reconsider the above statement.
> > > 
> > > Secondly, consider that many of us with highly critical 
> attitudes 
> > > toward the Adyar TS and some of its leaders past and present 
> might 
> > > have very positive attitudes toward most of the members we 
have 
> > > known. (And some of the leaders, e.g. John Coats about whom 
> nary 
> > a 
> > > bad word has ever been written here AFAIK.) I can certainly 
say 
> > that 
> > > for myself, and would suspect that several others here would 
> agree.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Nobody is to be condemned to be a priest, to be an employee 
of 
> > the 
> > > T.S. Adyar or not. To use the personal choices of others, 
their 
> > > religious preferences or their support for an author or other 
to 
> > try 
> > > to depreciate their point of view and opinions it is not a 
fair 
> > game. 
> > > I really did not see the point of Dr. Tillet announcing here 
in 
> > this 
> > > forum that Pedro will be a future Bishop of the LCC. 
> > > > 
> > > As one who has no dog in this fight, and who likes Pedro very 
> > much, I 
> > > still have to tell you that he started this particular line of 
> > attack 
> > > and counterattack. Again, what you see is through some 
> > > organizational blinders.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > What he is trying to prove with these posts that Pedro's 
> > opinions 
> > > have not value because he is a priest of the LCC? Better try 
> other 
> > > arguments because these just express how small some people can 
> act 
> > in 
> > > order to depreciate others.
> > > > 
> > > Please re-read that in light of the initial post about Tillett 
> by 
> > > Pedro. And please don't think I wish to deprecate you; I 
think 
> > > you're generally one of the more fair and openminded 
> participants 
> > > here. But you've made two black/white blaming/excusing 
> judgments 
> > > here that are wrong -- WAY wrong-- on both counts.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > krishtar <krishtar_a@b...> wrote:
> > > > Hello Erica
> > > > 
> > > > It is a pity that much of what we have been acquainted, 
> > > familiarized to, in terms of information about many subjects 
in 
> > the 
> > > Theosophical background and history has been under the form of 
> all 
> > > this animosity, isn#900;t it?
> > > > People tend to become very literate but sometimes I gess the 
> > lack 
> > > of compassion screams at a higher level in the same proportion.
> > > > Although I feel not comfortable to judge anyone#900;s 
> bahaviour, 
> > I 
> > > cannot deny that people are again hurting and being hurt back 
in 
> > the 
> > > list.
> > > > 
> > > > Krishtar
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: Erica Letzerich 
> > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:01 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Ecclesiastical associations?
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Guys why do I have the impression you love each other so 
> much... 
> > > > 
> > > > Love is in the air 
> > > > Oh oh oh 
> > > > Oh oh oh 
> > > > Love is in the air 
> > > > 
> > > > Erica
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > gregory@z... wrote:
> > > > Pedro's reference to a folly of my adolescence (i.e. 
> membership 
> > for 
> > > a time of 
> > > > the Liberal Catholic Church)is hardly a revelation of any 
> > > significance. It is 
> > > > explicitly noted in my biography of Leadbeater: p.viii.
> > > > As for adding "ecclesiastical titles", what ecclesiastical 
> title 
> > is 
> > > held by 
> > > > someone at the lowest level of the Minor Orders of the 
Liberal 
> > > catholic 
> > > > Church??
> > > > Should all who offer comments declare, in advance, any 
> > memberships 
> > > or 
> > > > affiliations? If so, why has Pedro not declared that he is a 
> > priest 
> > > of the 
> > > > LCC, and about to become a bishop? that he is an employee of 
> the 
> > > (Adyar) 
> > > > Theosophical Society? It could be argued that these are 
> relevant 
> > > > considerations in evaluating the arguments he is making 
(and, 
> in 
> > > particular, 
> > > > his refusal to give clear responses to questions about 
> > Leadbeater).
> > > > Is he a member of the ES? the ER? of Co-Masonry? should we 
> check 
> > > out his time 
> > > > working at Adyar? 
> > > > Perhaps we should we seek a complete curriculum vitae of 
> > everyone 
> > > posting on 
> > > > the site?
> > > > Does anyone care? I certainly don't. My assessment of 
> arguments 
> > is 
> > > based on 
> > > > the arguments themselves, not on the present or past 
> > associations 
> > > of the 
> > > > person expressing the opinion. But "shooting the messenger" 
is 
> > an 
> > > old 
> > > > political tactic. The gullible are often impressed.
> > > > 
> > > > Dr Gregory Tillett
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site!
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site!
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]