Theos-Talk Archives (May 2005 Message tt00665)

May 26 2005

I have been wondering about this for some time along these lines, and
here are some question on CONSCIOUSNESS I have been thinking of:

Can we not say that "consciousness" means awareness ? A
chemical element is guided by properties innate to it, and
those are regulated by its electro-magnetic composition --
so that certain chemicals react and others do not.

In deep sleep we still have consciousness, but there is no
awareness.

Consciousness is an attribute of a manifest universal
field, while awareness is a characteristic of the laya point 
out of which both consciousness and matter arise.

I thought that consciousness was "awareness." I do not
follow the distinction that you make.

For "consciousness" to operate the "Cognizer" is immutable
relative to the sensations cognized -- It is on "another
plane" and the sensations are then perceived as changes,
laws, rules of procedure, effects, etc...

In what way is a "laya point" involved? Transition from
what to where ?

I can understand that Laya is in occultism "that point where
substance becomes homogeneous and is unable to act or
differentiate. [ Glos. p. 187 ] "a "neutral axis" -- "the
limiting point of any given set of senses," [SD I 148 ] It
would seem to be the meeting point, a neutral point or
"center," where two consecutive planes of matter already
formed" meet -- "an incessant circulation takes place
between these." [ SD I 148 ]

Apparently the ATMA [ our Higher Self ] is the Witness,
immovable. Consciousness is one and not many.

As I understand it, "consciousness," "perception,"
"awareness" are synonyms. It takes a Mind (on any plane of
matter, or substance, to "sense" phenomena and also serve as
a scribe to record observations.

If the "Consciousness" is ONE and not several, it is the
MONAD (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) which is the eternal Witness and
it records (on the akasa) its experiences. Buddhi is "root
matter" and serves as that imperishable eternal "record"
Hence when there is "manifestation, Atma-Buddhi to become
conscious in that condition requires Manas.

It is the three-fold MONAD (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) which is the
differentiated "spark" from the "parent" FIRE -- the
ABSOLUTENESS (into which all ultimately is resolved), but
such a "resolution" is NOT an abolishment or annihilation in
any way. If that were a fact the terms "immortal," and
"imperishable" could not apply.

Would it be correct to say:

The source of Atma is the ABSOLUTENESS ?
The source of Buddhi is Maha-Buddhi or Mulaprakriti
(Root matter) ?
The source of Manas is MAHAT or the Universal Mind ?

The "cause" of evolution and differentiation is the
effort of the MONAD to undergo and comprehend all
experience, and learn how to resolve complexity back into
simplicity, WHILE RETAINING THE EXPERIENCES that it
undergoes.

Logically such a process is unending. "As we advance
the Goal ever recedes."

"Manifestation," "{non-manifestation," ABSOLUTENESS,
differentiation are all terms that our embodied mind employs
in an attempt to resolve the paradox of its eternal and
unchangeable presence.

Whatever we may think we are (as some set of limits), we ARE
HERE. We exist.

We are surrounded by other beings of similar constitution to
ours.

This makes BROTHERHOOD a reasonable fact which we need to
use here and now.

It also explains the reason that theosophy emphasizes the
moral nature of motive as the basis for all individual and
collective KARMA. The Ethical/moral, causative choices that
we make all the time actuate personal Karma.


================================


(A said) 

If that were all, it would be quite mechanical. However it
is observed in chemical engineering that not all chemicals
react entirely, or that the results are absolutely pure
and free of their original combining constituents. So an
equation for a chemical reaction reads with a double
arrow, one side pointing forward to the compound and the other
pointing back from the compound to the elements that were
supposed to combine 100%, and, are found in practice, not
to do that at all.

Is this randomness or indeterminacy possibly an example of
independent consciousness at the atomic or molecular
stage?


========================================


(L answers)

Possibly--by a long stretch of the imagination, perhaps...

But, what does the manifest aspects of material nature have to 
do with consciousness as a universal attribute of spirit?  

Randomness and indeterminacy only apply to the illusory 
physical aspects of matter. Consciousness, as the immutable 
attribute of spirit cannot be subject to changes, whether
random or not-that are limited solely to the mutable material 
plane of existence.


====================================


DALLAS:

I do understand that "consciousness" is unchangeable,
immutable. All else is phenomena and is constantly
changing. Because of the immutability of CONSCIOUSNESS, we
(as the PERCEIVER) are able to witness and record change.
Then when we relate the changes observed, we attempt to
derive an expression of the "laws" involved.

We take it for granted that Nature is always honest and
true, and provides a trustworthy base for us to use.

Yet, Theosophy states that the nature (and phenomena) of
"matter" change, as the Sun and our EARTH in attendance,
sweep through areas of Space where quite different laws and
conditions prevail.

It also draws our attention to the fact that OUTSIDE of our
system the conditions of matter may be quite different from
the way in which matter behaves here and around us, but,
there is a boundary, a transfer surface (?) where the
phenomena of matter and forces in "outer-Space" are
translated into the phenomena we are familiar with here and
now. [ SD I 142 ]

I used the ideas of randomness and indeterminacy to
illustrate the difficulties that Science has encountered in
explaining phenomena of difference observed in certain areas
of their work. I do not believe that Nature is either
random or indeterminate. "There is no "chance" in Nature,
wherein everything is mathematically co-ordinate and
mutually related in its units." [ SD I 653 ]



There appear to be other levels of "consciousness" --- as
in the "sensitivity of plants" Jagdish Chandra Bose
demonstrated this as far back as the 1880s and 1900s and
more recently I have read that there appears to be a
mysterious and instantaneous communication of sensitivity
between a "mother plant" and a "daughter plant" made by
rooting one of the "mother's" branches and then
transporting it hundred, even thousands of miles away from the
"mother."

Experiments have shown that the reaction of the "mother"
to a stimulus is transmitted to the "daughter" over great
distances. Why ? How ?

>=======================================

(L wrote)

Since everything in the universe (empowered by Fohat)
stems from cosmic "electricity," there is a connection 
between each and all of the seven fold aspects of nature.  

If each aspect is an electric field functioning at a different 
phase level or order of vibration, then all
fields are linked by harmonics, resonance and inductive 
processes. This accounts for the actions on the physical 
plane being continuously recorded on the akashic plane.

Since awareness in any field is an attribute of the
zero-point alone (around which each field vibrates) and 
since all zero-points existing in the "vacuum"
of space are contiguous with each other, and since the
mother and daughter tree have the same astral body--they 
are linked together through their common zero (laya) point 
of awareness within that astral field (which is the active 
root of all sensory perception). Thus, what is
experienced by the Mother plant can also be experienced 
by the daughter--no matter how far apart they are... Also, 
since the Astral field vibrates in a higher
frequency phase order than the material fields, and its cycle 
time constant very short, an astral wave form can travel much 
faster than light (C).


===================================

DALLAS

Agreed. I am still puzzled about the using of a "laya
point" as a focus. I seems to me that it is a transition
point, and that a "higher consciousness" would pass through
it to observe or act on a plane of "lower" material
existence -- and to my mind comes the concept of the "7 -
Principles." They abut as well as interpenetrate each
other, and everyone of the primary SEVEN shares aspects of
itself with all the others -- hence the "49 fires" .


=======================================================


Additionally, all the lower beings exist as a sort of
group "kingdom consciousness" rather than as the fully 
individualized conscious awareness experienced by the 
Human Kingdom (due to our "awakened" manasic link).  
This makes it much more likely that the lower Kingdoms are more
sensitive to the higher planes of consciousness than are ordinary
(non-awakened) humans. Even animals, like cats, are much more sensitive to
the astral
vibrations than we humans with our noisy, interfering minds.:-)

========================================

DALLAS

This sounds to me as though we were talking of the "Monadic
essence" -- On p. 632 Vol. 1 SD, HPB lists 4 conditions of
the Monads: "gods," "elementals," and "atoms." The 4th
division seem to be the "countless spiritual Forces--Monadic
less, for they are pure incorporealities, except under certain
laws when the assume a form--not necessarily human.

SD I 619 we read: "Every atom becomes a viable complex unit
(a molecule), and once attracted into the sphere of
terrestrial activity, the Monadic Essence, passing through
... becomes man. In their septenary aggregation they are
the "Heavenly Man"..."The Monads (Jivas) are the 'soul of
the Atoms, both are the fabric in which the Chohans
(Dhyanis, gods) cloth themselves when a form is needed."

============================================



(Dallas)

And so on, other instances are in the animal and human
bodies where the cells, molecules, etc... show great
wisdom in their process of renovation and maintenance in the host
bodies. Every body or being is made up of countless
atoms, molecules, cells, and other structures -- all are ruled by
intelligence -- but in each case there is evidence of a
central guidance system and one wonders how that is done
and why the least of things is so well organized and adjusted
to the rest of its environment. What CONSCIOUSNESS rules
all this vast Universe and each smaller universe ? Our
human bodies are said to consist on the average of 30 to
40 quadrillion atoms ! We certainly do not rule and adjust
all that, so some Intelligence helps to do that for us -- we
are tenants in a self-conscious dwelling house, and only
regulate what we do and how we behave when we are awake,
aware, attentive, thinking doing and acting -- and we do
not do that yet, very well ! When the body sleeps who keeps
the home-fires burning ?

All is cooperative in nature, So why not Consciousness?>>

==================================

DALLAS Agreed

==================================


(L)

It might be looked at this way. In the awakened universe,
Spirit or consciousness is the first aspect to manifest and
therefore contains all wisdom and intelligence 
(accumulated from the experience of all previous
"lives" of the Divine "light"). This intelligence is in
the form of vibratory energy patterns contained within the
consciousness "field"... (Somewhat like the interference 
patterns of light that contain all the information necessary 
to recreate a holographic image.)

---------------------------------

DALLAS I think that is an excellent image.

----------------------------------

Since consciousness rules over Mahat and, subsequently, on
the lower planes, over Manas, and since Manas rules over the 
lower nature and is all knowing on the physical plane--it, 
therefore, by replicating the holistic patterns of higher wisdom 
and knowledge (through its resonance with the higher fields of  
Atma-Buddhi), can guide all the "lives" in our bodies and
direct both Prana and the Astral to, in turn, energize and guide the forms
in their cooperative activities, as well as in their generation and
regeneration (or repair when damaged). This transfer of information
through the
application of Will, empowered by Kama, is what keeps the activities of
"life"
rolling along in perfect correspondence and compliance with the universal
order. This, incidentally, is the idea behind the old Testament
statement that "God creates man in His (Its) own image."

================================

DALLAS

Would it not be better to say that "Consciousness" focuses
itself in that aspect of ITSELF (in manifestation) that we
call Mahat (universally) and Manas (individually)

I do like the concept of its ability to instantly contact
all aspects using a "holistic" faculty and thus actuate the
"lower principles" as needed.

Is not WILL -- Fohat ? It is the "bridge" that links
Mind-decision with material "action"

============================



Dallas
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Meredith 
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 5:09 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: "just being" -- the alpha and the omega


The discussions have been good, but we each may be hammering too hard at 
secondary points along the continuum.

I have been looking for the crux of the difference between our various 
perspectives and below seems to be at least one point from which many of the

other differences may arise.

> ---- Self identity is that in which one identifies with. When the choice
> is made to identify with "naked mind" or "monad" or "immortal I"
> then the limits are that of "naked mind", etc. ----
>
> Yes, I agree. And that is exactly why I call all such definitions
> imputations. As long as one maintains the thought "I am a monad in 
> ultimate
> reality" then one can rest assured that one is not.

At one point it was said that the free and immortal I, the naked mind, and 
Blavatsky's monad were attempts to describe the same indescribable being. 
That a thing cannot be adequately described does not mean it does not exist 
or that it can only exist to the extent that it is inadequately described.

One perspective would see that a monad could maintain the thought "I am a 
monad in ultimate reality and I rest assured that I am that which I am." A 
monad may adorn itself however it chooses. This seems self-evident to me. 
It may not seem so from other perspectives. This is understood and 
accepted. From my perspective, existence through all the realms, planes, 
dimensions, and perspectives begin and end in the unbounded reality of the 
free and immortal monad. Defining that the naked mind can do nothing in 
ultimate reality is inadequate. Even those who define in this manner are 
finally forced to acknowledge that the monad must at least be able to send 
out a "ray". To send forth a ray of itself, a choice to do so (action) is 
made and an action follows that choice, so the monad in ultimate reality can

choose and actions flow from that choice. Karma is our label for the effects

of that choice it is optimally fulfilled on the appropriate realm, plane, 
and dimension or multiples thereof. As above, so below. If one wishes to 
maintain the view that upon choosing to act, the monad moves itself out of 
ultimate reality into some other reality that allows for choosing and 
acting, then one may certainly maintain that view. All I can do is share my

perspective. To me, all realities begin and end within the boundless 
ultimate reality of the free and immortal I. The naked mind is not 
something else out there, it is I, I am it. I may adorn myself however I 
choose. Other's may call my adornments illusions. That is their 
perspective. I do not see their perspective as more true or false than mine.

Each is free to choose their own experiences. I choose the experience of 
that which may be referred to by an infinite number of different labels or 
by no label at all.

peace and goodwill to all beings,

bill








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