Theos-Talk Archives (May 2005 Message tt00657)

Hallo Anand and all,

Sorry about the length of the answer.


Anand wrote:
"I don't think LCC used word Atmavidya. TS is not connected to LCC or
any other religious organizations. LCC likes Theosophy and so they
spread that teaching, they are free to do so. But TS can not connect
itself to any religion or LCC."

My Sufilight answer follows.

About AtmaVidya I can agree.
But the in the next sentences I find myself disagreeing.

This view of yours in the next sentences, Anand, is not the same as the one 
we learned by
Annie Besant and Leadbeater when the LCC was announced.
We find the following statement from the Canadian TS website:
"Charles Webster Leadbeater became a welcome exponent of Theosophy soon 
after joining the Society in the 1880's. Many of his early contributions in 
articles, special manuals, treatises and books are still widely held as 
good, useful and instructive; and I would add my own warm indebtedness to 
him during several years of my early membership. Later, in studying Man, 
Whence, How and Whither, I questioned some of the statements; and with The 
Masters and the Path I had serious doubts, apart from the wisdom of 
publishing such a book. Then, however, came Mrs Besant's wholehearted 
endorsement of his views-and I put all suspicions on the shelf until further 
evidence or proof appeared. The evidence and proof, though long delayed, 
have now emerged.

A number of letters sent by C.W. Leadbeater, then living in Sydney, to Annie 
Besant, President of The Theosophical Society, at Adyar, between 1916 and 
1920 are concerned with the 'Lord Maitreya' and the Liberal Catholic Church, 
which was then being founded. These have but recently come to my knowledge.

The claim of the Liberal Catholic Church for support from Fellows of The 
Theosophical Society was based on the belief, expressed in this 
correspondence, that the World Teacher, the Lord Maitreya, had 'brought it 
into being' and 'approved' its liturgy. Mrs Besant accepted the information 
in good faith and announced the founding. A letter dated April 7, 1920 
contains the following:

He (the Lord Maitreya) told us to ask questions from the Master K.H. upon 
points as to which we were uncertain-and the information which we gained in 
this way was of the very greatest value to us.

The questions put by Bishop Leadbeater to the Master K.H., and said to have 
been answered by him, run to several thousand words. They relate to the 
celebration of Mass, the effect of consecration and of priesthood, and to 
numerous details of ecclesiastical procedure. The answers to these many 
questions all support and endorse the clerical views of Bishop Leadbeater 
himself. Evidently the 'Lord Maitreya' knew nothing of the Master K.H.'s 
strong views on religions and sacerdotalism. The Mâhatmâ Letters to A.P. 
Sinnett had not at that time been published. Letter No.10, signed by the 
Master K.H., states:

The chief cause of nearly two-thirds of the evils that pursue humanity ... 
is religion under whatever form and in whatsoever nation. It is the 
sacerdotal caste, the priesthood and the churches; it is in those illusions 
that man looks upon as sacred that he has to search out the source of that 
multitude of evils which is the great curse of humanity .... The sum of 
human misery will never be diminished unto that day when the better portion 
of humanity destroys in the name of Truth, morality and universal charity 
the altars of their false gods.

And in Letter No.134 the Master M. speaks of:

invisible results proceeding from erroneous and sincere beliefs. Faith in 
the Gods and God and other superstitions attract millions of foreign 
influences, living entities and powerful agents ..... who delight in 
personifying gods... These are the gods that Hindus and Christians and all 
others of bigoted religions and sects worship.

These extracts from letters written by the Masters K.H. and M. furnish 
convincing evidence of 'unconscious kriyâshakti' projections by Bishop 
Leadbeater. The extracts would also seem to imply that the liturgies of 
churches devoted to the adoration and worship of personal gods-the projected 
mental images of the worshippers-induce a kind of refined idolatry.

Moreover, the imminent Coming of the World Teacher is the theme of 
Leadbeater's letters:

Close and perfect is the communication I have opened .... I have chosen you 
to hold it .... occupy till I come.

He quotes these words as from the Lord Maitreya. Yet Krishnamurti-the Chosen 
Vehicle-was beginning to rebel, and a few years later utterly repudiated all 
connection. Later, Bishop Pigott, Presiding Bishop of the Liberal Catholic 
Church, wrote:

The Lord did not come in the way foretold ... The Lord has not come, so far 
as we know .... Leadbeater ... was wrong about the Coming ..... Theosophists 
are in no sense bound to accept Leadbeater as an infallible teacher. 
(August, 1952)."
http://www.theosophical.ca/NoReligion.htm

And at the TS-Adyar official website we find:
http://ts-adyar.org/headquarters.html
That there is a shrine for LCC.

So Anand the shoe doesn't really fit that well, does it?

A QUESTION:
Is there anyone here at Theos-Talk, who has or have had access to the same 
letters as Gardner
- or who could give us some more light upon which letters we are talking 
about?
Perhaps these letters aught to be made public !



Radha Burnier article where she quotes Leadbeater:
"C. W. Leadbeater, while speaking to the European Congress in 1930, also 
pointed out that although the members of the TS agree upon the values of its 
declared Objects, it is possible for them to argue about their 
interpretation and practice.

No one is likely to dispute that the idea of trying in every way to 
promote the Brotherhood of Humanity is a good thing, and that to form a 
nucleus of that Brotherhood is a step towards greatly increasing its 
influence. But how the thing is best to be done is of course a question on 
which there may be quite legitimately many opinions, and there is not the 
faintest objection to there being many opinions. It is that which keeps the 
Society alive and which we hope may prevent crystallization . . .

But being good has very little to do with the form of our belief. It has 
to do a good deal with putting it fully into practice . . . Let brotherly 
love guide you. You may differ as much as you like in opinions, but you must 
not let it lead to any sort of ill feeling or any sort of conceit in your 
superior discernment in being able to see what to you is the right path . . 
. Let us stand together in Brotherhood and carry on our work, whatever work 
that may be. There is plenty of time later on to argue what this means and 
what that means."
http://www.theosophical.org/theosophy/questmagazine/novdec04/burnier/


John Alego's article in the below is just evidence on, that we here at 
theos-talk is
doing an effort.
" The purpose of the conference was to consider ways of presenting the 
principles of Theosophy to Americans reared in a primarily Judeo-Christian 
culture. As the invitation put it:
It is often said that Theosophy is Eastern in focus (particularly 
emphasizing Buddhism and Hinduism), and that remark is often a criticism, 
implying that we neglect the spiritual tradition most dominant in Western 
culture around us. Historically within or alongside or outside the Society 
there have been attempts to Westernize/Christianize the presentation of the 
Wisdom Tradition (Anna Kingsford's Hermetic Society, Rudolf Steiner's 
Anthroposophy, Wedgwood and Leadbeater's Liberal Catholic Church, G. R. S. 
Mead's Quest Society, etc.), but they do not necessarily speak to the 
concerns of persons at the beginning of the new millennium who come out of 
the Judeo-Christian tradition and who are not comfortable in the Eastern 
traditions that we are pretty good at presenting in a Theosophical light.

We are currently making efforts in such presentation in the Quest magazine 
and in Quest Books. . . . But it would be useful to have a group of 
knowledgeable people review the options and brainstorm on how to present 
Theosophy in other ways that seem relevant to our Western contemporaries and 
on how to reach those persons."
http://www.theosophical.org/theosophy/questmagazine/novdec2002/algeoXP/ 
(written year 2000)

- - - - - - - -

To make a few words on Alego's interesting words.

My take is for instance, that the Theosophical Society and other offshoots
almost all of them lack a proper manifesation on the following issues:

a) A clearer stance on phallicism and ones relation to the Liberal Catholic 
Church
b) A clearer stance on the present VITAL lack of
literary outlets, or lack of emphasis if you like, - on cultural and 
religious areas as the Middle East and Islam.
But also areas as Africa and it spiritual historical heritage. And also The 
South America and other places where
we humans live and breathe.
c) A clearer stance on multicultural issues and racism.
c) A clearer stance on what Blavatsky called the basis of theosophical 
teaching -
namely AtmaVidya - to which all other magical arts are inferior.
d) A clearer stance on how one is promoting the theosophical organisation
while taking the above four - issues into account.
That is, - for instance how to provide an online Internet Bookshop, which
is showing the needed compassion in a now increasinly more and more
global world or planet - on the physical level.
e) And also a restoration within theosophical circles of the emphasis given
on allegorical teachings compared with the many non-allegorical
outlets given by both Leadbeater and Besant.

This will according to my views hopefully keep the theosophical teachings
on the right track.




from
M. Sufilight


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anand Gholap" <AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:15 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re:Those who study Blavatsky's writing become 
fundamentalists


> Morten,
> Theosophical Society does not have official definition of Theosophy.
> Theosophy includes everything. Theos means God and Sophia means
> wisdom. So Theosophy literally means wisdom of the God or Bramhavidya.
> However TS considers Theosophy as all wisdom in the world. That
> includes sciences, religions, philosophies etc. So even if sometimes
> for convenience Atmavidya word might be used for Theosophy, one
> should not consider it limited to spiritual teaching.
>
> Blavatsky used words and sentences loosely many times, so her
> definitions and statements should not be considered as standard.
> Blavatsky's definition as given by you "basis of the various
> teachings, which forms what we can call - Theosophy " means one
> esoteric teaching behind all religions. This is also comparatively
> narrow definition. Fact is there is no perfect word in Sanskrit for
> Theosophy, nearest are Atmavidya or Bramhavidya. So sometimes these
> words are used.
> Leadbeater or Besant did not use word Atmavidya regularly, though
> sometimes they have. They always used the word Theosophy- meaning
> vast, all-inclusive science.
> I don't think LCC used word Atmavidya. TS is not connected to LCC or
> any other religious organizations. LCC likes Theosophy and so they
> spread that teaching, they are free to do so. But TS can not connect
> itself to any religion or LCC. According to TS all religions are
> given by Great Teachers or Rishis in Occult Hierarchy for guiding
> humanity or large parts of it. So TS respects all religions and
> religious organizations but does not associate itself exclusively
> with any one.
> Anand Gholap
>
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" <global-
> theosophy@s...> wrote:
> > Hallo Anand and all,
> >
> > My views are:
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your answer.
[Cut short by M. Sufilight ]