Theos-Talk Archives (April 2005 Message tt01421)

Dear Jerry:

Those questions are sent because some real answers could be used by me. I
ponder along those lines and wondered if others also did that.

Faith and Belief have always bothered me as they seem to indicate a degree
of lassitude (Tamas) -- "Leave me alone !" -- ishness

Rhetorical -- No I haven't solved those by any means. Need help in getting
a broader view.

Look at this for a moment: (I was reading it last night from NOTES ON THE
BHAGAVAD GITA )

"It is true that all the disciples learned something in spite of their
defects, but it is also true that the lack of intuitive perception of the
divine nature of their teachers was the most important factor in the failure
of those disciples to truly transmit the teachings they had received; for
that lack closed the door in themselves through which the divine
enlightenment could come. [ Means ?]


Even Arjuna, loyal and devoted disciple as he was, had failed to perceive
the wondrous nature of his teacher. It was not until that teacher by his
favor and power had caused “the divine eye” in Arjuna to open that the
ability to see on that plane of substance was gained. It is natural to
suppose that Arjuna had by his unshaken confidence and constant devotion
arrived at a stage of development where such help was merited. [ Mental,
higher EYE ? ]


It might be well for students of Theosophy to consider whether they may not
have made a similar mistake in regard to Those who brought the message of
Theosophy to the Western world, and so kept closed the only door through
which direct help could come.

In the closing portion of the chapter Krishna says: “I am not to be seen,
even as I have shown myself to thee, by study of the Vedas (scriptures), nor
by mortifications, nor alms giving, nor sacrifices. I am to be approached
and seen and known in truth by means of that devotion which has me alone as
the object.”

The following, written by one of the Teachers, may serve as an explanation
of the foregoing paragraph. 

“Ishwara, the spirit in man, is untouched by any troubles, works, fruit of
works, or desires, and when a firm position is assumed, with the end in view
of reaching union with spirit through concentration, He (that spirit) comes
to the aid of the lower self and raises it gradually to higher planes.” The
“firm position” and concentration are one and the same; it means a
lifetime’s devotion, an acting for and as the Self in all things.

“He whose actions are for me alone, who esteemeth me the supreme goal, who
is my servant only, without attachment to the results of action and free
from enmity towards any creature, cometh to me, 0 son of Pandu.” G N
178-9

---------------------

FAITH (Ch. 12 )

THE word “faith” as used in this chapter has a far deeper meaning than is
usually given it. 

To have faith, is the holding of a conviction of the truth of that upon
which one’s faith is fixed. 

There are many “faiths” in the world, some adopted because of ignorance,
credulity and superstition: others, because they appeal to the desires of
their adherents; others again, because of the partial truths they hold. 

That which is lacking in all these is “knowledge,” for a conviction held in
ignorance only perpetuates ignorance and its results: a conviction held from
desire only perpetuates desires and their results; a conviction held because
of partial truths perceived indicates a little knowledge, but not enough to
distinguish the error that is always mixed with partial truths. 

The “faith” spoken of by Krishna is that which is founded on self
knowledge—or KNOWLEDGE OF THE SELF AS BEING ALL, AND IN ALL. A reliance upon
that Supreme Self, and an identification of one’s Self with It, presents an
unchanging and unchangeable basis from which the Truth in regard to Man and
all Nature may be perceived. 

“True faith” can only exist when founded upon right knowledge.

In the reply of Krishna which closes the eleventh chapter, these words are
found: “I am to be approached and seen and known in truth by means of that
devotion which has me alone as an object.” [Krishna as the "HIGHER SELF
?']

Arjuna follows in the twelfth chapter with the question: “Among those of thy
devotees who always thus worship thee, which take the better way, those who
worship the indivisible and unmanifested, or those who serve thee as thou
now art?“

Krishna’s reply embodies the following:

“For those whose hearts are fixed on the unmanifested the labor is greater,
because the path which is not manifest is with difficulty attained by
corporeal beings.” 

A foot-note explains that “The difficulty here stated is that caused by the
personality, which causes us to see the Supreme as different and separate
from ourselves.” 

The tendency of human beings is to think and act as persons in their
relations with other human beings and with manifested nature in general, and
although they may ardently desire TO ACT “FOR AND AS THE SELF,” they find
themselves constantly falling under the sway of the purely personal feeling
of separateness.

The words “Or those who serve thee as thou now art,” refer to the form in
which Krishna was best known to Arjuna. That this was a human form is
indicated in the previous chapter, where Arjuna says, “Having been ignorant
of thy majesty, I took thee for a friend, and have called thee ‘0 Krishna, 0
son of Yadu, 0 friend,’ and blinded by my affection and presumption, I have
at times treated thee without respect, in sport, in recreation, in thy
chair, and at thy meals, in private and in public; all this, I beseech thee,
O inconceivable being, to forgive.” 

In this sentence Arjuna recognizes Krishna as a divine incarnation, a being
who had reached perfection and who had voluntarily incarnated in order to
help those still struggling in “this ocean of incarnations and death.” That
such divine incarnations have not been infrequent, both before and since the
time of Krishna, is shown by a study of the world’s great religions; the
rationale and meaning of such incarnations is clearly shown in the “Secret
Doctrine.”

The course of EVERY ARJUNA—AND EACH ONE OF US IS JUST THAT—is first a
recognition that true knowledge must exist, and an ardent desire to obtain
that knowledge. Then comes a search for the source of that knowledge; in
that search lies the danger for the seeker. He finds many teachers, to
knowledge. 

While as yet he has no means of determining the true from the false, he will
accept ignorantly that teacher or teaching which his ideas and desires. This
unfortunately is the course of most seekers. 

But there are to be found others who examine carefully the fundamental bases
of the teachings offered, and who will accept only that one whose
foundational propositions can be so universally applied that their truth be
comes self-evident.

A resumé of the previous chapters will show that Krishna pointed out to
Arjuna the various forms of belief and practice—or devotion— followed by
men, and that these, though partial and erroneous, would finally lead to the
one Truth if the seeker was sincere and devoted in his search for it. [
True ? ]


At the same time THE ONE REALITY OR TRUTH WAS SHOWN TO BE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL
MEN, and to be the highest, most direct and noblest path, leading to
understanding wisdom and true happiness.


“ But if thou shouldst be unable at once steadfastly fix thy heart and mind
on me, ‘strive then 0 Dhananjaya, to find me by constant in devotion.”
Steadfastness is gained by a constant endeavor to become stead fast.

“If after constant practice, thou art still unable, follow me by actions
performed for me; for by doing works for me thou shalt attain perfection.”
The works referred to are special ones, designed and performed for the sake
of the Supreme, all tending towards an elimination of the “personal idea” of
separateness.

“ But if thou art unequal even to this, then, being self-restrained, place
all thy works, failures and successes alike, on me, abandoning in me the
fruit of every action. For knowledge is better than constant practice,
meditation is superior to knowledge, renunciation the fruit o action o
meditation; final emancipation immediately results from such renunciation.” 

It has been said that the Source of all beings is One; that the goal is One;
but that the Path varies with each pilgrim. 

Hence each pilgrim is at a point of evolution or development where one or
other of the steps presented is within reach. Each of these steps is shown
to be leading in the direction of the goal, but the aspirant must see them
as only steps, the condition of his success being that he must ever keep THE
GOAL—UNION WITH THE HIGHER SELF—in view.

“ Being self—restrained,” means HOLDING THE PERSONAL SELF IN ABEYANCE.
“Place all thy works, failures and successes alike, on me, abandoning in me
the fruit of every action,” hardly needs an explanation; for the same
instruction has been given so often in previous chapters of the Gita, such
as— 

“Freedom comes from a renunciation of self-interest in the fruit of one’s
actions.” 

Self-interest is always a matter of thinking; we can have no attachment for
anything that we do not think about, nor can we have any dislike for a thing
we do not think about; so if we find confronting us THINGS RIGHT TO BE DONE,
we should do them, regardless of whether they promise success or failure to
ourselves. 

Krishna says that final emancipation immediately results from such
renunciation, thus placing complete renunciation as attainment of the goal. 

Renunciation is superior to meditation because is by meditation upon the end
in view that renunciation comes; meditation is superior to knowledge because
right knowledge produces right meditation ; knowledge is better than
constant practice, because practice begets knowledge.

The remainder of the chapter should be read in connection with these notes,
for there Krishna speaks of the qualities possessed by those who follow the
path he shows. The chapter ends with these words, “But those who seek this
sacred ambrosia—the religion of immortality—even as I have explained it,
full of faith, intent on me above all others and united to devotion, are my
most beloved.”
G N 180-186

---------------------------------

The next chapter on the 3 Gunas is (to me) equally thought provoking.


Thanks for asking,

Dallas

----------------------------------------------
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 11:21 AM
To: Cc: AA-BNStudy
Subject RE: Learning, teaching, research, questioning -- some guide lines
needed


Hello Dallas,

Are these questions rhetorical or are you seeking for others to answer 
them? If the latter, then, are you asking these questions to get other 
views, or is it because you already "know the answers" and want to 
"correct" those who have answers different than yours? 

Thanks

Jerry

========================================

Dallas wrote:

4 21 05

RE: Learning, teaching, research, questioning  
-- some guide lines needed

Dear Friends:

May I break in and ask (sorry if I repeat) ?

1
"BELIEF" -- Does it mean: "To the best of my knowledge "so and so" is
true?

Does this also include the humble addition: "But, I am looking?"

Does it admit a personal degree of ignorance?


2
"FAITH" -- Does it mean: "I trust without reserve in some statement or
authority chosen by me ?"

Or does it mean: "I have so far proved "so and so" to be correct ?"  

And does it include: "I am not yet convinced, so I am seeking?"

Or does it bluntly say: "Don't bother me any further with "truths" or
additional, or adverse facts that may force me to re-think and change my
position."

Does it automatically exclude other "Faiths" from consideration?


3
If there are extremes of these two positions, can we say we are faced with
dogmatism and fanaticism? [or: "Closed Minds ?" ]

In those cases what are dogmatists and fanatics basing themselves on?  

I. E., How would they qualify their positions?  

What is "Authoritarian defiance?"

Does a degree from our learned Institutions demand that we protect its
"authority" -- even if such a stamp of approval received in our past, is now
demonstrably inaccurate?  

How does learning progress?

If discovery and investigation of Nature proceeds, how are the integrity,
honesty, and reliability of Science maintained and preserved?

What are our duties and responsibilities?

Where do freedom of research and investigation become iconoclasm? 

Are old images" (ideas, theories, hypothesis) to be defended at all costs? 

4
My next questions is: 

How does anyone acquire additional knowledge on various subjects ?

What does one do when we meet an explanation that contradicts or modifies
what we have so far assumed to be correct? 

What kind of a forum is needed, where a "no holds barred" approach is
welcome?

What is an "Open Mind?"

Best wishes, 

Dallas