Re: Different forms of presentation of the Ancient Wisdom
Mar 22, 2005 11:51 AM
by Anand Gholap
Dallas,
You don't need to check every fact if it agrees with HPB and Masters.
God has given you head and higher self to illuminate your mind. So
don't depend on external authority like HPB or Masters too much. For
information purpose reading is OK. But you must learn from higher
self and use your judgement.
Anand Gholap
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck"
<dalval14@e...> wrote:
> Mar 22 2005
>
>
> Anand:
>
> RE: Different forms of presentation of the Ancient Wisdom
>
> "Theosophy has evolved over thousands of years. It's outward
form of
> presentation was different at different times and different
places. "
>
>
> That is NOT what the Masters or HPB have said.
>
> They brought THEOSOPHY to us. They say it is a statement of facts
in nature which they have tested and verified over aeons. Further,
they offer good proofs.
>
>
> Where did you secure this concept? What references do you have?
>
> What do you think THEOSOPHY is?
>
>
> Read (if you will):
>
>
> ANTIQUITY OF THEOSOPHY
>
> ======================
>
>
> We may assume that you have visited this Theosophy Study Discussion
List because you hope that there may be answers from students of
Theosophy which you could compare with the thesis you seem to have
already set up.
>
> Some have said:
>
> ” I read your interesting mail with some delight. Yet again, when
confronted with anything that goes against Theosophical thinking or
asked to use sources other than Theosophy to give your thoughts
weight you resort to the age old argument of "You don't agree so you
don’t understand". “
>
> Theosophy is a statement of the Laws and History of our World and
of Nature (the Universe in which it exists).
>
>
> ANCIENT SOURCE OF THEOSOPHY
>
>
> "(1.) The Secret Doctrine is the accumulated Wisdom of the Ages,
and its cosmogony alone is the most stupendous and elaborate system:
e.g., even in the exotericism of the Puranas.
>
> But such is the mysterious power of Occult symbolism, that the
facts which have actually occupied countless generations of initiated
seers and prophets to marshal, to set down and explain, in the
bewildering series of evolutionary progress, are all recorded on a
few pages of geometrical signs and glyphs.
>
> The flashing gaze of those seers has penetrated into the very
kernel of matter, and recorded the soul of things there, where an
ordinary profane, however learned, would have perceived but the
external work of form. But modern science believes not in the "soul
of things," and hence will reject the whole system of ancient
cosmogony. It is useless to say that the system in question is no
fancy of one or several isolated individuals.
>
> That it is the uninterrupted record covering thousands of
generations of Seers whose respective experiences were made to test
and to verify traditions passed orally by one early race to another,
of the teachings of higher and exalted beings, who watched over the
childhood of Humanity.
>
> That for long ages, the "Wise Men" of the Fifth Race, of the stock
saved and rescued from the last cataclysm and shifting of continents,
had passed their lives in learning, not teaching. How did they do so?
It is answered: by checking, testing, and verifying in every
department of nature the traditions of old by the independent visions
of great adepts; i.e., men who have developed and perfected their
physical, mental, psychic, and spiritual organisations to the utmost
possible degree. No vision of one adept was accepted till it was
checked and confirmed by the visions"so obtained as to stand as
independent evidence"of other adepts, and by centuries of
experiences.” SECRET DOCTRINE, 1-272
>
>
> The present day scientist and Theosophical students " and we are
all students -- study the information provided to us by that which
Nature has established. We all live and exist because Nature follows
Laws that are exact and repetitive. Our work, both scientist and
theosophist is to discover them and compare them.
>
> Our “Science” tries to explain by hypothesis and theorieswhat
may have been the “past” of present day observations (of course
limited by the availability of artifacts and relics, and their
present knowledge of the LAWS, so far detected and observed to be
operating, in many correlated departments of Nature).
>
> No one will dispute facts.
>
> One proviso in this work of scientific discovery and identification
is the one of extreme honesty " no secrets, no hiding " and is,
that all facts and discoveries (anomalies especially) are to be made
available for all to see and draw conclusions about.
>
> From evidence occasionally made available, it would seem that on
occasion, certain facts (and artifacts) are removed from the glare of
publicity " and we might conclude that this is done because they
could upset or question some well-established hypothesis or theory.
If true, this is not strict “honesty.” Where has the “public”
been invited to review the “facts?” This I have looked for but
rarely if ever found in a systematic, scientific way.
>
> As a result, I, for one, distrust scientific hypotheses, and any
kind of claims or pontification.
>
> There are in Science no “authorities” " only seekers,
observers and honest, accurate reporters. Yet many hypotheses are
offered, and some are declared to be “law.”
>
> As a case in point, let me refer you to the voluminous work HIDDEN
ARCHEOLOGY (by Cremo and Johnson) published in San Diego, and a
second volume issued two years later, in which they document the
reception by scientists of their first book and the “facts”it
displays.
>
> As we are speaking of disagreements and anomalous discoveries,
several authors down the years have pointed to these and (to my
knowledge) have never been thoroughly refuted by Science " or given
prominence -- to my knowledge.
>
> We may take the writings of John Anthony West, Von Danigen, Emanuel
Velikovsky, Charles Fort, H. P. Blavatsky, Donnelly. These are
authors, who in their writings, articles, books -- have challenged
" not Science’s facts -- but their interpretations of the past as
they have reconstructed it in their widely accepted (but rarely re-
investigated) theories and hypotheses. There are in existence
challenging anomalies that demand a review of the older theories "
after all, a “theory, or, an hypothesis” are not inflexibleand
are always subject to revision as new facts are discovered.
>
> In my opinion, the exposing of challenges to scientific
“hypothesis and theories” show us, who are thinkers and
observers, that they are not invariably of the highest value
(although they are often taught as “truths). They cannot be adopted
or treated as “authoritative.”
>
> There are differences to be investigated.
>
> One may well ask: Why is it a fact that there are disagreements?
We present our views and findings, you have your own to compare.
Naturally we will present to you what we know in terms drawn from
Theosophy as you have approached us to find out what THEOSOPHY says.
>
> If you were to ask for the providing of information from “other
systems,” while this is available, we have not all done that
extensive work and concentrated it. I believe it will prove
difficult (but ought to be initiated), as the fundamental
Theosophical approach is: that it, Theosophy, is a very ancient
system of continued Scientific research and observation in all
departments of Nature, and of the world religions, philosophies, and
also this observation and recording in old as well as modern
Sciences, are derived from it.
>
> As an example, in H P B’s The SECRET DOCTRINE you will find it
stated that the doctrines discussed have an antiquity going back some
at least 18 million years. [ S D I 150 footnote ]. Here are
further statements:
>
> "Theosophy is Divine Knowledge, or Science, "Divine Wisdom"
> (Theo-Sophia) -- the term is many thousand years old."
> KEY TO THEOSOPHY , p. 1.
>
> "Theosophy is synonymous with everlasting Truth."
> KEY TO THEOSOPHY, p. 302.
>
> "We have no two beliefs or hypotheses on the same subject."
> KEY TO THEOSOPHY, p. 72.
>
> "Theosophy is the substratum and basis of all the world-religions
and
> philosophies taught and practised by a few elect ever since man
became a
> thinking being." The THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY p. 328.
>
> "The "Wisdom Religion" is the inheritance of all the nations, the
world
> over." S D I xviii
>
> Theosophy [is]...the one bond of unity which is so universal and
all-embracing that no man, as no speck -- from gods and mortals down
to animals, the blade of grass and atom -- can be outside of its
light. Therefore any organization or body of that name [Theosophical]
must necessarily be a Universal Brotherhood.
>
> HPB states the records are actually physically in the possession of
the “Masters of Wisdom.” That exceeds by a great many years, and
cycles of years, any concept of time that the research done by
organized Science in the past 300 years -- (I mean, since
“Orientalism,” began with the scientists that Napoleon I had
accompany him to Egypt in the very early 19th century.)
>
>
> ANCIENT LIBRARIES
>
>
> Says the SECRET DOCTRINE :
>
> “The main body of the Doctrines given is found scattered
throughout hundreds and thousands of Sanskrit MSS., some already
translated"disfigured in their interpretations, as usual,"others
still awaiting their turn. Every scholar, therefore, has an
opportunity of verifying the statements herein made, and of checking
most of the quotations. A few new facts (new to the profane
Orientalist, only) and passages quoted from the Commentaries will be
found difficult to trace. Several of the teachings, also, have
hitherto been transmitted orally: yet even those are in every
instance hinted at in the almost countless volumes of Brahminical,
Chinese and Tibetan temple-literature.
>
> However it may be, and whatsoever is in store for the writer
through malevolent criticism, one fact is quite certain. The members
of several esoteric schools"the seat of which is beyond the
Himalayas, and whose ramifications may be found in China, Japan,
India, Tibet, and even in Syria, besides South America"claim to
have in their possession the sum total of sacred and philosophical
works in MSS. and type: all the works, in fact, that have ever been
written, in whatever language or characters, since the art of writing
began; from the ideographic hieroglyphs down to the alphabet of
Cadmus and the Devanagari.
>
> It has been claimed in all ages that ever since the destruction
of the Alexandrian Library (see Isis Unveiled, Vol. II., p. 27),
every work of a character that might have led the profane to the
ultimate discovery and comprehension of some of the mysteries of the
Secret Science, was, owing to the combined efforts of the members of
the Brotherhoods, diligently searched for. It is added, moreover, by
those who know, that once found, save three copies left and stored
safely away, such works were all destroyed. In India, the last of the
precious manuscripts were secured and hidden during the reign of the
Emperor Akbar.*
>
> It is maintained, furthermore, that every sacred book of that
kind, whose text was not sufficiently veiled in symbolism, or which
had any
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
Footnote--------------------------------
> * Prof. Max Müller shows that no bribes or threats of Akbar could
extort from the Brahmans the original text of the Veda; and boasts
that European Orientalists have it (Lecture on the “Science of
Religion,” p. 23), Whether Europe has the complete text is very
doubtful, and the future may have very disagreeable surprises in
store for the Orientalists.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
>
> direct references to the ancient mysteries, after having been
carefully copied in cryptographic characters, such as to defy the art
of the best and cleverest palæographer, was also destroyed to the
last copy. During Akbar’s reign, some fanatical courtiers,
displeased at the Emperor’s sinful prying into the religions of the
infidels, themselves helped the Brahmans to conceal their MSS. Such
was Badáonì, who had all undisguised horror for Akbar’s mania for
idolatrous religions.*
>
> Moreover in all the large and wealthy lamaseries, there are
subterranean crypts and cave-libraries, cut in the rock, whenever the
gonpa and the lhakhang are situated in the mountains. Beyond the
Western Tsaydam, in the solitary passes of Kuen-lun † there are
several such hiding-places. Along the ridge of Altyn-Toga, whose soil
no European foot has ever trodden so far, there exists a certain
hamlet, lost in a deep gorge. It is a small cluster of houses, a
hamlet rather than a monastery, with a poor-looking temple in it,
with one old lama, a hermit, living nearby to watch it. Pilgrims say
that the subterranean galleries and halls under it contain a
collection of books, the number of which, according to the accounts
given, is too large to find room even in the British Museum. ‡”
S D I xxiii - iv
>
>
>
> NOVELTY and DISCOVERY
>
>
> It is of course very annoying to find that the ancients (India,
China, Egypt, Iran, the Incas and Mayans, etc…) had made
discoveries and had observed the movement of the stars for millennia
before our present “discoveries.” In many cases we (our Science)
corroborates those, and in some we have disagreement. The main
point and attitude we, as investigators and Scientists, ought to
always adopt ought to be: Lets verify. Let’s freely admit that we
have discovered evidence that shows antiquity, in many parts of the
world, had processes and used materials they were able to manufacture
for which we have yet to discover the secrets.
>
> There is no “shame” in this, but any claims to novelty
disappear in the rightful process of verification.
>
> Theosophical sources are the writings of Mme. Blavatsky: books and
articles, most of which can be studied and understood by anyone..
Also, to some extent, they have to be individually supplemented with
first hand observation and inquiries over years.
>
> Neither you, nor we (as students of Theosophy), are the final
arbiters in this. We do make comparisons. Some we understand and
others we do not. We are continually learning, all of us.
>
> But, as I understand it, it is facts that we are looking for, as
well as, the supporting of mental acuity and freedom of thought.
>
> Those who worship at the shrine of TRUTH and FACT are contemptuous
of no source of information, nor of any anomalies, or of contemporary
or earlier work done by any one. We seek for traces of similarity, of
analogy, or correspondence.
>
> Look through ISIS UNVEILED, (by HPB) if you wish to see what facts
and events are brought forward for consideration there. It tends to
point to important evens and anomalies that the Science of her days
(and now, still) need to verify. On publication, ISIS UNVEILED
created a sensation, and in a week all copies of the book were sold.
It has been kept in print since then.
>
> Eleven years later (1888) The SECRET DOCTRINE was issued;. There
you have a synopsis and review of the Occult records of the history
of our Earth’s formation and the evolution of mankind. These are
meticulously contrasted with Science and its theories as known and
taught in her time of writing. Some of those are still maintained.
In many cases, and most often in terms of cycles and time"periods,
the SECRET DOCTRINE does not agree with the current theories and
hypotheses of modern Orientalism and Science. But that does not make
them wrong, or extraordinarily fanciful, or suspect. [see S D II,
pp. 78-80]
>
> NATURE -- the UNIVERSE -- is ALL
>
>
> We (as students of Theosophy) take the position that NATURE (or
Deity) already contains everything. It is Nature as a fully
conscious and intelligent lawful ENTITY of enormous size " which,
as a whole, supports every detail of our needs (as well as those of
all other beings in existence). It gives us, not only our
“life,” but that of all ‘beings’ that make up our total
environment. Law and Laws alone govern every aspect of being and
manifestation. Our Science studies those.
>
> NATURE is the universal shrine of our common worship. Its
organization ranges through seven stages between the limits of
INFINITY and NOUGHT. It is a calculus made living and perfectly
obvious to the seeker.
>
> All living beings, of whatever kind, are supported by the united
processes of laws that Nature has already in place. [ Chemistry,
physics, mathematics, astronomy, biology, medicine, sociology,
linguistics, politics, history, etc… are as old as thinking man --
a period said to comprise at least 18 million years.
>
> All the discoveries of Science are simply the revealing and
verifying of what is already there laid down and operating under
Nature’s control and supervision. There is no “novelty” only
DISCOVERY, and verification of facts observed.
>
> Our present knowledge has, and is, gradually being built up. It is
NOT built on the basis that any one individual “knows best,” or
knows “everything,” and therefore challenging words like
“lies,” “misunderstandings,” “charlatanry,” “fraud,”
etc. are not used, unless there is verified evidence, at FIRST HAND
of their existence. Their use in inquiry and conversation implies to
me, that certain judgments have been made. Permit me to question
their validity.
>
> If you have read the literature of Theosophy, then, in a broad-
minded, free capacity to embrace information, let me ask what are
your specific objections to statements made there. Inquiry starts
with dialog. But if there is a pre-judged position assumed by either
party, at that point inquiry and exchange ceases. I then becomes
argument " and “opinions” as viewed by some impartialthird
party” are made to emerge and strand on whatever basis they
deserve.
>
> Incidentally, have you have read Sylvia Cranston’s biography of
H.P.B. (Tarcher, New York) as it answers seriously and with
documented facts all the innuendos cast at this life and work of this
remarkable Personage
>
> If permitted, let me ask, if you have read ISIS UNVEILED or The
SECRET DOCTRINE? I am interested in the opinions you have to offer,
and their basis.
>
> If one has had the benefit of a wide acquaintance with Science and
Academic research in general, one may find that the most valuable
attitudes among such wonderful and dedicated people can be classed as
humility, diligence, and unprejudiced research " and of course,
this has to include a wide research, and a good knowledge of all
adjacent disciplines.
>
>
> SEEKING TRUTH -- PROBING
>
>
> Those who are at the forefront of discovery in Science,
Orientalism, and Philosophy ask probing questions, seek for facts,
and do not make pronouncements, designed to support their views,
guesses and opinions of the past or present. To take but a few we
have at the cutting edge of Science: Hawkings, Penrose, Sheldrake,
Margulis, Mandelbrot, Viswanath Diwakar, etc.
>
> Theosophy fills gaps that Science is still trying to bridge, and
for which (and it is a lack of specific knowledge) it has erected
“possible views” of plausible causes and procedures in the
establishing of a reasonable “history,” and calls them: theories
and hypotheses, which are found to frequently change as the history
of Science reveals, when new evidence appears.
>
> It would seem to me, that you may have adopted some conclusions
which today are acceptable in your personal opinion and
“Discipline.” And it also seems to me that you are seekingto
verify and prove your pre-judged position. To me, this is most
commendable as it will enable you to make strict scientific research
possible.
>
> You have obviously made a unique study -- leading to
specialization. You have therefore assumed that the solutions
(theories and hypotheses) accepted by your “authorities” and
adopted by you are correct.
>
> But are you not in the process of proving them?
>
> In contrast to you, I prefer (as a student of THEOSOPHY ) to call
myself a “generalist.” I listen to all sides and take notes and
reserve assuming any position until it is clear we are all
considering such facts and reports as are available.
>
> I try to cover a number of inter-related disciplines, since it is
evident that Nature has interlocking and cohesive systems in place.
For example, on careful examination I believe we might say: Nature
(taken as a whole) appears to be infinitely sensitive and responsive
to the needs of the individual components of its many systems.
>
> One can see order and precision in the motions, and influence
surrounding an atom, a crystal, an element or a chemical compound, a
plant, an animal, a man, a mathematical equation, or a chemical,
physical or astronomical problem -- or take the remarkable advance
in astro-physics and look at a Solar System and the large number of
interacting Galaxies that the use of the Hubble telescope has
revealed in all directions.
>
> Is the Universe in fact an enormous SUN ? Are we bathed (as unit
parts of its inhabitants) with a constant stream of the most varied
radiations? We live on Earth, but our “heads” are in those far
stars. Are we then to limit and sequester our knowledge? What roads
of endeavour lead to WISDOM ?
>
> Law and Laws are found to rule everywhere. Science depends on the
honesty and accuracy of Nature in all its works near and far.
Science makes its declarations based on the facts it discovers. It
chooses NATURE as the final authority. It says that any discovery
can be replicated and demonstrated by any one else. It is the
universality of facts that is valuable, and not the individual
opinions of the discoverers.
>
> In the orient, the oldest texts were transmitted verbally with
great control over sound and inflection because (and I have tapes
that demonstrate this) concealed in the sound were some of the
“codes” whereby secret knowledge was transmitted. The
superficial sounds in ancient verses were made to present a coherency
that served as a kind of “blind” which diverted and deflected the
attention of a newcomer or a non-initiate.
>
> There are certain euphonic similarities which, studied in terms of
actual linguistic distribution (present and past) are said to have a
relationship -- but your study and research says that is not so. It
remains to find out what is correct. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE (on
language and codes: I, pp. 269, 307-25, 362, 568; II, pp, 198-
201, 334-5, 364, 560, ]
>
> Again, neither of us are either right or wrong, but we seek to find
out where the greater accuracy is. Your research and mine may
overlap in places, but they are not invariably coincident, and
certainly neither of us can assume that their position and our
particular observations are necessarily final, and the statements
made by the other are idiotic. And as I understand it, in a life time
of dealing with experts in all departments of Scientific research,
prejudice is usually careless of the findings of other disciplines,
unless the researcher has a rare and inquisitive (even intuitive)
nature and is determined to find the TRUTH by any and every means,
and accept no conclusions unless they are proven to general
satisfaction. We accept nothing and reject nothing. The future will
teach this.
>
>
>
> THEOSOPHY DOES NOT HAVE TO BE MOVED “FORWARD.”
>
>
> It is already descriptive of all observable phenomena, as it deals
with and reports on NATURE and her laws and history. It has always
done this and reports facts observed in the past and ascribes causes
which our modern Science is yet to uncover.
>
> Our eyes embrace everything in Nature because nature makes it
available to those who are constructively its servants. We look for
the ethical and moral effect of any laws or action which we might
bring about when using Nature’s laws. Science has yet to take the
clue and work with that aspect of knowledge.
>
>
> It doesn't matter if Theosophy is 'real' or not. It does a fine job
of bringing people together and doing good works. What I do object to
is the indefensible idea that it is based in its entirety on ancient
books (written we are told by Atlanteans).
>
>
> I recognize that the antiquity of information held by Theosophy is
a surprise to most scientists.
>
> They are also surprised to learn that in India there are thousands
of manuscripts other than the Vedas and the Upanishads, that deal
with all aspects of science, mechanism, chemistry, physics, biology,
mathematics, medicine, psychology, etc.. and those are under the care
of the hereditary families of Brahmins, who guard them, and are not
at all interested in letting the modern Academicians know anything
about them.
>
> In The SECRET DOCTRINE you will find that WISDOM is not solely
derived from the Atlanteans, but that there have been races older and
wiser than they. Those claims mean nothing. In the “here and
how” what are we doing ? what are we learning? what are we
verifying?
>
>
> We all have a lot to learn and are learning new things every day.
>
> There are no finalities, but only an ever-focused sharpening of
understanding.
>
> We, the entire Universe, ever pursues a common and conjoint path of
discovery, so while recording facts and events, our final conclusions
ever ride along with us, and have to remain as flexible hypotheses --
they help us understand until they for lack of finality, break-down
and have to be reframed. The general plan is there all right, but as
we all progress through time and events, we reframe the conclusions
(Karma) we will have to meet in the future.
>
> There is no “stasis” (except some assumed ones) anywhere.What
are those?
>
> 1 the UNIVERSE exists. (On many planes of substance and
sensitivity)
>
> 2 we as OBSERVERS exist " we are immortals as no beginning or
end to our work seems logical. Bodies wear out and die, but Karma
provides us with new ones, and so one and on… (we, as Essential
Beings, are not physical nor mental, but of some kind of SPIRITUAL
SUBSTANCE that survives the continual “ravages of change,” in its
correlates of time, and alterations in space.
>
> 3. the ongoing relations between the UNIVERSE and OURSELVES are
an essential part of this timeless and limitless REALITY. In the
SECRET DOCTRINE they are said to be seven-fold [ see S D I, 157-
8; II, 296 ].
>
> These ideas ought to give us all food for thought for some time.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dallas
>
> ==================================================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anand
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:50 AM
> To:
> Subject: Different forms of presentation of the Ancient Wisdom
>
>
>
> Theosophy has evolved over thousands of years. It's outward form of
> presentation was different at different times and different places.
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