Theos-Talk Archives (March 2005 Message tt00477)

Mar 22 2005


Anand:  

RE: Different forms of presentation of the Ancient Wisdom

"Theosophy has evolved over thousands of years. It's outward form of 
presentation was different at different times and different places. "


That is NOT what the Masters or HPB have said.  

They brought THEOSOPHY to us. They say it is a statement of facts in nature which they have tested and verified over aeons. Further, they offer good proofs.


Where did you secure this concept? What references do you have?

What do you think THEOSOPHY is?


Read (if you will):


ANTIQUITY OF THEOSOPHY

======================


We may assume that you have visited this Theosophy Study Discussion List because you hope that there may be answers from students of Theosophy which you could compare with the thesis you seem to have already set up.

Some have said:
 
” I read your interesting mail with some delight. Yet again, when confronted with anything that goes against Theosophical thinking or asked touse sources other than Theosophy to give your thoughts weight you resort to the age old argument of "You don't agree so you don’t understand". “

Theosophy is a statement of the Laws and History of our World and of Nature(the Universe in which it exists).


ANCIENT SOURCE OF THEOSOPHY 


"(1.) The Secret Doctrine is the accumulated Wisdom of the Ages, and its cosmogony alone is the most stupendous and elaborate system: e.g., even in the exotericism of the Puranas. 

But such is the mysterious power of Occult symbolism, that the facts which have actually occupied countless generations of initiated seers and prophets to marshal, to set down and explain, in the bewildering series of evolutionary progress, are all recorded on a few pages of geometrical signs and glyphs. 

The flashing gaze of those seers has penetrated into the very kernel of matter, and recorded the soul of things there, where an ordinary profane, however learned, would have perceived but the external work of form. But modernscience believes not in the "soul of things," and hence will reject the whole system of ancient cosmogony. It is useless to say that the system in question is no fancy of one or several isolated individuals. 

That it is the uninterrupted record covering thousands of generations of Seers whose respective experiences were made to test and to verify traditionspassed orally by one early race to another, of the teachings of higher andexalted beings, who watched over the childhood of Humanity. 

That for long ages, the "Wise Men" of the Fifth Race, of the stock saved and rescued from the last cataclysm and shifting of continents, had passed their lives in learning, not teaching. How did they do so? It is answered: bychecking, testing, and verifying in every department of nature the traditions of old by the independent visions of great adepts; i.e., men who have developed and perfected their physical, mental, psychic, and spiritual organisations to the utmost possible degree. No vision of one adept was acceptedtill it was checked and confirmed by the visions—so obtained as tostand as independent evidence—of other adepts, and by centuries ofexperiences.”	SECRET DOCTRINE, 1-272

 
The present day scientist and Theosophical students – and we are all students -- study the information provided to us by that which Nature has established. We all live and exist because Nature follows Laws that are exact and repetitive. Our work, both scientist and theosophist is to discover them and compare them.

Our “Science” tries to explain by hypothesis and theories what may have been the “past” of present day observations (of course limited by the availability of artifacts and relics, and their present knowledge of the LAWS, so far detected and observed to be operating, in many correlated departments of Nature).

No one will dispute facts.  

One proviso in this work of scientific discovery and identification is the one of extreme honesty – no secrets, no hiding – and is, that all facts and discoveries (anomalies especially) are to be made available for all to see and draw conclusions about. 

>From evidence occasionally made available, it would seem that on occasion, certain facts (and artifacts) are removed from the glare of publicity – and we might conclude that this is done because they could upset or question some well-established hypothesis or theory. If true, this is not strict “honesty.” Where has the “public” been invited to review the “facts?” This I have looked for but rarely if ever found in a systematic, scientific way.

As a result, I, for one, distrust scientific hypotheses, and any kind of claims or pontification.  

There are in Science no “authorities” – only seekers, observers and honest, accurate reporters. Yet many hypotheses are offered, and some are declared to be “law.”

As a case in point, let me refer you to the voluminous work HIDDEN ARCHEOLOGY (by Cremo and Johnson) published in San Diego, and a second volume issued two years later, in which they document the reception by scientists of their first book and the “facts” it displays.  

As we are speaking of disagreements and anomalous discoveries, several authors down the years have pointed to these and (to my knowledge) have never been thoroughly refuted by Science – or given prominence -- to my knowledge.  

We may take the writings of John Anthony West, Von Danigen, Emanuel Velikovsky, Charles Fort, H. P. Blavatsky, Donnelly. These are authors, who in their writings, articles, books -- have challenged – not Science’s facts -- but their interpretations of the past as they have reconstructed it in their widely accepted (but rarely re-investigated) theories and hypotheses. There are in existence challenging anomalies that demand a review of the older theories – after all, a “theory, or, an hypothesis” are not inflexible and are always subject to revision as new facts are discovered.

In my opinion, the exposing of challenges to scientific “hypothesisand theories” show us, who are thinkers and observers, that they are not invariably of the highest value (although they are often taught as “truths). They cannot be adopted or treated as “authoritative.”

There are differences to be investigated.  
 
One may well ask: Why is it a fact that there are disagreements? We present our views and findings, you have your own to compare. Naturally we will present to you what we know in terms drawn from Theosophy as you have approached us to find out what THEOSOPHY says.  
 
If you were to ask for the providing of information from “other systems,” while this is available, we have not all done that extensivework and concentrated it. I believe it will prove difficult (but ought tobe initiated), as the fundamental Theosophical approach is: that it, Theosophy, is a very ancient system of continued Scientific research and observation in all departments of Nature, and of the world religions, philosophies, and also this observation and recording in old as well as modern Sciences, are derived from it.  

As an example, in H P B’s The SECRET DOCTRINE you will find it stated that the doctrines discussed have an antiquity going back some at least 18 million years. [ S D I 150 footnote ]. Here are further statements:

"Theosophy is Divine Knowledge, or Science, "Divine Wisdom"
(Theo-Sophia) -- the term is many thousand years old." 
KEY TO THEOSOPHY , p. 1.
 
"Theosophy is synonymous with everlasting Truth."   
KEY TO THEOSOPHY, p. 302.
 
"We have no two beliefs or hypotheses on the same subject."   
KEY TO THEOSOPHY, p. 72.
 
"Theosophy is the substratum and basis of all the world-religions and
philosophies taught and practised by a few elect ever since man became a
thinking being." The THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY p. 328.
 
"The "Wisdom Religion" is the inheritance of all the nations, the world
over." S D I xviii
 
Theosophy [is]...the one bond of unity which is so universal and all-embracing that no man, as no speck -- from gods and mortals down to animals, the blade of grass and atom -- can be outside of its light. Therefore any organization or body of that name [Theosophical] must necessarily be a UniversalBrotherhood.

HPB states the records are actually physically in the possession of the “Masters of Wisdom.” That exceeds by a great many years, and cycles of years, any concept of time that the research done by organized Science in the past 300 years -- (I mean, since “Orientalism,” began with the scientists that Napoleon I had accompany him to Egyptin the very early 19th century.)


ANCIENT LIBRARIES		


Says the SECRET DOCTRINE :

“The main body of the Doctrines given is found scattered throughouthundreds and thousands of Sanskrit MSS., some already translated—disfigured in their interpretations, as usual,—others still awaitingtheir turn. Every scholar, therefore, has an opportunity of verifying the statements herein made, and of checking most of the quotations. A few new facts (new to the profane Orientalist, only) and passages quoted from the Commentaries will be found difficult to trace. Several of the teachings, also, have hitherto been transmitted orally: yet even those are in every instance hinted at in the almost countless volumes of Brahminical, Chinese and Tibetan temple-literature.

However it may be, and whatsoever is in store for the writer through malevolent criticism, one fact is quite certain. The members of several esoteric schools—the seat of which is beyond the Himalayas, and whose ramifications may be found in China, Japan, India, Tibet, and even in Syria, besides South America—claim to have in their possession the sum total of sacred and philosophical works in MSS. and type: all the works, in fact, that have ever been written, in whatever language or characters, since the art of writing began; from the ideographic hieroglyphs down to the alphabet of Cadmus and the Devanagari. 

It has been claimed in all ages that ever since the destruction of the Alexandrian Library (see Isis Unveiled, Vol. II., p. 27), every work of a character that might have led the profane to the ultimate discovery and comprehension of some of the mysteries of the Secret Science, was, owing to thecombined efforts of the members of the Brotherhoods, diligently searched for. It is added, moreover, by those who know, that once found, save three copies left and stored safely away, such works were all destroyed. In India,the last of the precious manuscripts were secured and hidden during the reign of the Emperor Akbar.*

It is maintained, furthermore, that every sacred book of that kind, whose text was not sufficiently veiled in symbolism, or which had any 
 
------------------------------------------------------------Footnote--------------------------------
* Prof. Max Müller shows that no bribes or threats of Akbar could extort from the Brahmans the original text of the Veda; and boasts that European Orientalists have it (Lecture on the “Science of Religion,” p. 23), Whether Europe has the complete text is very doubtful, and the future may have very disagreeable surprises in store for the Orientalists.
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direct references to the ancient mysteries, after having been carefully copied in cryptographic characters, such as to defy the art of the best and cleverest palæographer, was also destroyed to the last copy. During Akbar’s reign, some fanatical courtiers, displeased at the Emperor’s sinful prying into the religions of the infidels, themselves helpedthe Brahmans to conceal their MSS. Such was Badáonì, who had allundisguised horror for Akbar’s mania for idolatrous religions.*

Moreover in all the large and wealthy lamaseries, there are subterranean crypts and cave-libraries, cut in the rock, whenever the gonpa and the lhakhang are situated in the mountains. Beyond the Western Tsaydam, in the solitary passes of Kuen-lun † there are several such hiding-places. Along the ridge of Altyn-Toga, whose soil no European foot has ever trodden so far, there exists a certain hamlet, lost in a deep gorge. It is a small cluster of houses, a hamlet rather than a monastery, with a poor-looking temple in it, with one old lama, a hermit, living nearby to watch it. Pilgrims say that the subterranean galleries and halls under it contain a collection of books, the number of which, according to the accounts given, is too large to find room even in the British Museum. ‡”	S D I xxiii - iv



NOVELTY and DISCOVERY


It is of course very annoying to find that the ancients (India, China, Egypt, Iran, the Incas and Mayans, etc…) had made discoveries and had observed the movement of the stars for millennia before our present “discoveries.” In many cases we (our Science) corroborates those, and in some we have disagreement. The main point and attitude we, as investigators and Scientists, ought to always adopt ought to be: Lets verify. Let’s freely admit that we have discovered evidence that shows antiquity, in many parts of the world, had processes and used materials they were able to manufacture for which we have yet to discover the secrets. 

There is no “shame” in this, but any claims to novelty disappear in the rightful process of verification. 
 
Theosophical sources are the writings of Mme. Blavatsky: books and articles, most of which can be studied and understood by anyone.. Also, to some extent, they have to be individually supplemented with first hand observation and inquiries over years. 
 
Neither you, nor we (as students of Theosophy), are the final arbiters in this. We do make comparisons. Some we understand and others we do not. Weare continually learning, all of us.  

But, as I understand it, it is facts that we are looking for, as well as, the supporting of mental acuity and freedom of thought.  

Those who worship at the shrine of TRUTH and FACT are contemptuous of no source of information, nor of any anomalies, or of contemporary or earlier work done by any one. We seek for traces of similarity, of analogy, or correspondence.  

Look through ISIS UNVEILED, (by HPB) if you wish to see what facts and events are brought forward for consideration there. It tends to point to important evens and anomalies that the Science of her days (and now, still) needto verify. On publication, ISIS UNVEILED created a sensation, and in a week all copies of the book were sold. It has been kept in print since then.  

Eleven years later (1888) The SECRET DOCTRINE was issued;. There you have asynopsis and review of the Occult records of the history of our Earth’s formation and the evolution of mankind. These are meticulously contrasted with Science and its theories as known and taught in her time of writing. Some of those are still maintained. In many cases, and most often in terms of cycles and time–periods, the SECRET DOCTRINE does not agree with the current theories and hypotheses of modern Orientalism and Science. But that does not make them wrong, or extraordinarily fanciful, or suspect. [see S D II, pp. 78-80]

NATURE -- the UNIVERSE -- is ALL

 
We (as students of Theosophy) take the position that NATURE (or Deity) already contains everything. It is Nature as a fully conscious and intelligent lawful ENTITY of enormous size – which, as a whole, supports every detail of our needs (as well as those of all other beings in existence). It gives us, not only our “life,” but that of all ‘beings’ that make up our total environment. Law and Laws alone govern every aspect of being and manifestation. Our Science studies those. 

NATURE is the universal shrine of our common worship. Its organization ranges through seven stages between the limits of INFINITY and NOUGHT. It is a calculus made living and perfectly obvious to the seeker.

All living beings, of whatever kind, are supported by the united processes of laws that Nature has already in place. [ Chemistry, physics, mathematics, astronomy, biology, medicine, sociology, linguistics, politics, history, etc… are as old as thinking man -- a period said to comprise at least 18 million years. 

All the discoveries of Science are simply the revealing and verifying of what is already there laid down and operating under Nature’s control and supervision. There is no “novelty” only DISCOVERY, andverification of facts observed.
 
Our present knowledge has, and is, gradually being built up. It is NOT built on the basis that any one individual “knows best,” or knows “everything,” and therefore challenging words like “lies,” “misunderstandings,” “charlatanry,” “fraud,” etc. are not used, unless there is verified evidence, at FIRST HAND of their existence. Their use in inquiry and conversation implies to me, that certain judgments have been made. Permit me to question their validity.  

If you have read the literature of Theosophy, then, in a broad-minded, freecapacity to embrace information, let me ask what are your specific objections to statements made there. Inquiry starts with dialog. But if there isa pre-judged position assumed by either party, at that point inquiry and exchange ceases. I then becomes argument – and “opinions” as viewed by some impartial third party” are made to emerge and strand on whatever basis they deserve. 

Incidentally, have you have read Sylvia Cranston’s biography of H.P.B. (Tarcher, New York) as it answers seriously and with documented facts all the innuendos cast at this life and work of this remarkable Personage
 
If permitted, let me ask, if you have read ISIS UNVEILED or The SECRET DOCTRINE? I am interested in the opinions you have to offer, and their basis. 
 
If one has had the benefit of a wide acquaintance with Science and Academicresearch in general, one may find that the most valuable attitudes among such wonderful and dedicated people can be classed as humility, diligence, and unprejudiced research – and of course, this has to include a wide research, and a good knowledge of all adjacent disciplines.  


SEEKING TRUTH -- PROBING


Those who are at the forefront of discovery in Science, Orientalism, and Philosophy ask probing questions, seek for facts, and do not make pronouncements, designed to support their views, guesses and opinions of the past or present. To take but a few we have at the cutting edge of Science: Hawkings, Penrose, Sheldrake, Margulis, Mandelbrot, Viswanath Diwakar, etc.
 
Theosophy fills gaps that Science is still trying to bridge, and for which (and it is a lack of specific knowledge) it has erected “possible views” of plausible causes and procedures in the establishing of a reasonable “history,” and calls them: theories and hypotheses, which are found to frequently change as the history of Science reveals,when new evidence appears.  
 
It would seem to me, that you may have adopted some conclusions which todayare acceptable in your personal opinion and “Discipline.” And it also seems to me that you are seeking to verify and prove your pre-judged position. To me, this is most commendable as it will enable you to make strict scientific research possible.  
 
You have obviously made a unique study -- leading to specialization. You have therefore assumed that the solutions (theories and hypotheses) acceptedby your “authorities” and adopted by you are correct.  

But are you not in the process of proving them?
 
In contrast to you, I prefer (as a student of THEOSOPHY ) to call myself a “generalist.” I listen to all sides and take notes and reserve assuming any position until it is clear we are all considering such facts and reports as are available.  

I try to cover a number of inter-related disciplines, since it is evident that Nature has interlocking and cohesive systems in place. For example, oncareful examination I believe we might say: Nature (taken as a whole) appears to be infinitely sensitive and responsive to the needs of the individual components of its many systems.  

One can see order and precision in the motions, and influence surrounding an atom, a crystal, an element or a chemical compound, a plant, an animal, a man, a mathematical equation, or a chemical, physical or astronomical problem -- or take the remarkable advance in astro-physics and look at a Solar System and the large number of interacting Galaxies that the use of the Hubble telescope has revealed in all directions.  

Is the Universe in fact an enormous SUN ? Are we bathed (as unit parts of its inhabitants) with a constant stream of the most varied radiations? We live on Earth, but our “heads” are in those far stars. Are we then to limit and sequester our knowledge? What roads of endeavour lead to WISDOM ?
 
Law and Laws are found to rule everywhere. Science depends on the honesty and accuracy of Nature in all its works near and far. Science makes its declarations based on the facts it discovers. It chooses NATURE as the finalauthority. It says that any discovery can be replicated and demonstrated by any one else. It is the universality of facts that is valuable, and notthe individual opinions of the discoverers.  
 
In the orient, the oldest texts were transmitted verbally with great control over sound and inflection because (and I have tapes that demonstrate this) concealed in the sound were some of the “codes” whereby secret knowledge was transmitted. The superficial sounds in ancient verses were made to present a coherency that served as a kind of “blind” which diverted and deflected the attention of a newcomer or a non-initiate.
 
There are certain euphonic similarities which, studied in terms of actual linguistic distribution (present and past) are said to have a relationship -- but your study and research says that is not so. It remains to find out what is correct. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE (on language and codes: I, pp. 269, 307-25, 362, 568; II, pp, 198-201, 334-5, 364, 560, ]
 
Again, neither of us are either right or wrong, but we seek to find out where the greater accuracy is. Your research and mine may overlap in places, but they are not invariably coincident, and certainly neither of us can assume that their position and our particular observations are necessarily final, and the statements made by the other are idiotic. And as I understand it, in a life time of dealing with experts in all departments of Scientific research, prejudice is usually careless of the findings of other disciplines, unless the researcher has a rare and inquisitive (even intuitive) nature and is determined to find the TRUTH by any and every means, and accept noconclusions unless they are proven to general satisfaction. We accept nothing and reject nothing. The future will teach this.  

 
 
THEOSOPHY DOES NOT HAVE TO BE MOVED “FORWARD.”  


It is already descriptive of all observable phenomena, as it deals with andreports on NATURE and her laws and history. It has always done this and reports facts observed in the past and ascribes causes which our modern Science is yet to uncover.  
 
Our eyes embrace everything in Nature because nature makes it available to those who are constructively its servants. We look for the ethical and moral effect of any laws or action which we might bring about when using Nature’s laws. Science has yet to take the clue and work with that aspect of knowledge.
 
 
It doesn't matter if Theosophy is 'real' or not. It does a fine job of bringing people together and doing good works. What I do object to is the indefensible idea that it is based in its entirety on ancient books (written we are told by Atlanteans).  
 
 
I recognize that the antiquity of information held by Theosophy is a surprise to most scientists.  

They are also surprised to learn that in India there are thousands of manuscripts other than the Vedas and the Upanishads, that deal with all aspects of science, mechanism, chemistry, physics, biology, mathematics, medicine, psychology, etc.. and those are under the care of the hereditary families of Brahmins, who guard them, and are not at all interested in letting the modern Academicians know anything about them.
 
In The SECRET DOCTRINE you will find that WISDOM is not solely derived fromthe Atlanteans, but that there have been races older and wiser than they. Those claims mean nothing. In the “here and how” what arewe doing ? what are we learning? what are we verifying?
 

We all have a lot to learn and are learning new things every day.  

There are no finalities, but only an ever-focused sharpening of understanding.  

We, the entire Universe, ever pursues a common and conjoint path of discovery, so while recording facts and events, our final conclusions ever ride along with us, and have to remain as flexible hypotheses -- they help us understand until they for lack of finality, break-down and have to be reframed. The general plan is there all right, but as we all progress through timeand events, we reframe the conclusions (Karma) we will have to meet in the future. 

There is no “stasis” (except some assumed ones) anywhere. What are those?

1	the UNIVERSE exists. (On many planes of substance and sensitivity)

2	we as OBSERVERS exist – we are immortals as no beginning or end to our work seems logical. Bodies wear out and die, but Karma provides us with new ones, and so one and on… (we, as Essential Beings, are notphysical nor mental, but of some kind of SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE that survivesthe continual “ravages of change,” in its correlates of time, and alterations in space.
 
3.	the ongoing relations between the UNIVERSE and OURSELVES are an essential part of this timeless and limitless REALITY. In the SECRET DOCTRINE they are said to be seven-fold [ see S D I, 157-8; II, 296 ].
 
These ideas ought to give us all food for thought for some time.

Best wishes,

Dallas
 
==================================================
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Anand 
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:50 AM
To: 
Subject: Different forms of presentation of the Ancient Wisdom



Theosophy has evolved over thousands of years. It's outward form of 
presentation was different at different times and different places.