Theos-Talk Archives (March 2005 Message tt00152)

Dear Leon
Krishnamurti seems to be confirming your experience in his own inimitable way.
Cass
You want to discuss kundalini?
P: Yes, sir.
K: Sir, first of all, if you really want to discuss, have a dialogue
about kundalini, would you forget everything you have heard about it?
Would you? We are entering into a subject which is very serious. Are
you willing to forget everything you have heard about it, what your
gurus have told you about it, or your attempts to awaken it? Can you
start with a completely empty state?
Then you have to enquire, really not knowing anything about
kundalini. You know what is happening now in America, in Europe.
Kundalini centres have been opened by people who say they have had
the experience of the awakening of kundalini. Scientists are
interested in it today. They feel that by doing certain forms of
exercise, breathing, they will awaken the kundalini. It has all
become a moneymaking concern, and it is being given to people who are
terribly mischievous.
Q: We just want to know whether there is an energy that can wipe out
conditioning.
K: So long as self-centred activity exists, you cannot touch it. That
is why I object to any discussion on kundalini or whatever that
energy is, because we have not done the spade work. We don't lead a
life of correctness and we want to add something new to it and so
carry on our mischief.
VA: Even after awakening kundalini, self-centred activity continues.
K: I question whether the kundalini is awakened. I don't know what
you mean by it.
VA: Sir, we really want to understand this, because it is an
actuality sometimes.
P: Do you know of an energy when self-centred activity ends? We
assume that this is the source of this endless energy. It may not be.
K: Are you saying the ending of this movement from the centre to the
circumference and from the circumference to the centre, the end of
that …
P: Momentary ending of it …
K: No, the ending of it, the complete ending of it – is the release
of that energy which is limitless?
P: I don't say that.
K: I am saying that.
P: Which is a very different thing to me saying it.
K: Can we put kundalini energy in its right place? A number of people
have the experience of what they call kundalini, which I question. I
question whether it is an actual reality or some kind of
physiological activity which is attributed to kundalini. You live an
immoral life in the sense of a life of vanity, sex, etc. and then you
say that your kundalini is awakened. But your daily life, which is a
self-centred life, continues.
P: Sir, if we are going to examine it, let us see how it operates in
one. The awakening of kundalini is linked to certain psychic centres
located at certain physical parts of the body. That is what is said.
The first question I would like to ask is whether that is so? Has the
release of this energy, which as no end, anything to do with the
psychic centres in the physical parts of the body?
A: Before we go into that, sir, is it not essential to enquire
whether the person who acquires that energy is incapable of doing
harm.
K: No, sir. Do be careful. How can we say somebody is incapable of
doing harm? They say many Indian gurus have done tremendous harm
misleading people.
A: That is what I say, sir. I feel that unless the person's heart is
cleansed of hate, and his thirst to do harm is completely transmuted,
unless that has happened, then this energy can do nothing but more
mischief.
K: Achyutji, what Pupulji is asking about is the standard acceptance
of the power of this energy going through various centres and the
releasing of energy and so on.
A: I say, sir, that before we ask that question, there is in the
Indian tradition a word which I think is very valuable. That word
is `adhikar'. Adhikar means that the person must cleanse himself
sufficiently before he can pose this question to himself. It is a
question of cleansing.
K: Are you saying that unless there is a stoppage of this movement
from the centre to the circumference and from the circumference to
the centre, that Pupulji's question is not valid?
A: I think so. I will use another word, the Buddhist word
is `sheela'. It is really the same. The word `adhikar' used by the
Hindus and the word `sheela' used by the Buddhist really mean the
same thing.
P: I take it that when one asks the question, there is a depth of
self-knowing with which one asks. It is not possible to investigate
the self which also releases energy, if one's life has not gone
through a degree of inner balance, otherwise what K says has no
meaning. When one listens to Krishnaji, one receives at the depth to
which one has exposed oneself, and therefore I think it is right to
ask the question. Why is this question more dangerous than any other
question? Why is it more dangerous than inquiring into what is
thought, what is meditation, what is this, what is that? To the mind
which will comprehend, it will comprehend this and that. To the mind
which will not comprehend, it will comprehend neither. To the mind
which wants to misuse, it will misuse anything.
K: Unless your life, your daily life is a completely nonself-centred
way of living, the other cannot possibly come in.
VA: There is arising of energy – there is delight at first, then
fear.
S: We would like to know why that energy creates fear.
VA: Fear comes later. One experiences death and everything vanishes.
You are alive again and you are surprised that you are alive again.
You find the world again, and your thoughts, and your possessions and
desires and the whole world slowly come back.
K: Would you call that, sir, the awakening of kundalini?
VA: I don't know, sir.
K: But why do you label it as the awakening of kundalini?
VA: For a few days after that, for a period of a month, the whole
life changes. Sex vanishes, desires vanish.
K: Yes, sir, I understand. But you do come back to it again.
VA: One comes back to it because one doesn't understand.
K: That is what I am saying, sir. When there is a coming back to
something, I question whether you have had that energy.
P: Why has this question awakened so many ripples? Most people go
through a great deal of psychic experiences in the process of self-
knowing. One also understands, at least one has understood because
one has listened to Krishnaji, that all psychic experience when they
arise, have to be put aside.
K: Is that understood? Psychic experiences must be totally put aside.
A: We put them aside, not only give no importance to them.
VA: Some new passages do get opened in the body, and the energy keeps
rising in those passages whenever it is required.
K: Sir, why do you call it something extraordinary? Why do we
attribute something extraordinary to this? I am just suggesting, it
may be that you have become very sensitive. That is all. Very acutely
sensitive.
VA: I have more energy.
K: Sensitivity has more energy. But why do you call it extraordinary,
kundalini this, that or the other?
P: The real problem is to what extent is your life totally changed. I
mean the only meaning of awakening is if there is a totally new way
of looking, a new way of living, a new way of relationship.
…
K: I live a life of torture, misery, confusion. That is my basic
feeling and can that end? There is no motive.
…
Can that whole process end? Only then can I answer the other
questions, which have tremendous significance.
P: What is the nature of the soil of the human mind which has to be
cultivated to receive the other? You tell me that is also a wrong
question. You say I am in conflict, I am suffering and I see that a
life of conflict and suffering has no end.
K: That is all. If it cannot end, then the other enquiry and
investigation, and the wanting to awaken the other in order to wipe
this out is a wrong process.
P: Obviously.
K: It is asking an outside agency to come and clear up your house. I
say in the process of clearing the house, this house, there are a
great many things that are going to happen. You will have
clairvoyance, the so-called `siddhis' and all the rest of it. They
will all happen. But if you are caught in them, you cannot proceed
further. If you are not caught in them, the heavens are open to you.
You are asking, Pupul, is there a soil that has to be prepared, not
in order to receive that, but the soil has to be prepared? Prepare,
work at that, clean the house so completely that there isn't the
shadow of escape. Then, we can ask, what is the state we are all
talking about. If you are doing that, preparing, working at the
ending of sorrow, not letting go, if you are working at that and you
come along and say is there something known as kundalini power, then
I am willing to listen.
A: Sir, the reason why I objected is that in the Hatha yoga Pradipika
text we make a statement that this investigation into kundalini is in
order to strengthen you in your search.
K: For God's sake, Achyutji, are you working at clearing up the
house?
A: Definitely.
K: Now, what is the question? Is there an energy which is non-
mechanistic, which is endless, renewing itself? I say there is. Most
definitely. But it is not what you call kundalini. The body must be
sensitive. If you are working, clearing up the house, the body
becomes very sensitive. The body then has its own intelligence, not
the intelligence which the mind dictates to the body. Therefore, the
body becomes extraordinarily sensitive, not sensitive to its desires,
or sensitive to wanting something, but it becomes sensitive per se.
Right? Then, what happens? If you really want me to go into it, I'll
do so. The people who speak of the awakening of kundalini, I
question. They have not worked at the other, but say they have
awakened kundalini. Therefore, I question their ability, their truth.
I am not antagonistic, but I am questioning it. A man who eats meat,
wants publicity, wants this and that and says his kundalini is
awakened, I say it is nonsense. There must be a cleansing of this
house all the time. Then Pupul says, `Can we talk about an energy
which I feel must exist?', not theoretically but of which she has had
a glimpse, the feeling of it, an energy that is endless; and K comes
along and says `yes', there is such a thing. There is an energy which
is renewing itself all the time, which is not mechanistic, which has
no cause, which has no beginning and therefore no ending. It is an
eternal movement. I say there is. What value has it to the listener?
I say `yes' and you listen to me. I say to myself what value has that
to you? Will you go off into that and not clear up the house?
P: That means, sir, that to the person who enquires, it is the
cultivation of the soil which is the ending of suffering, which is
essential.
K: The only job. Nothing else. It is the most sacred thing, therefore
you can't invite it. And you are all inviting it.
Clearing up the house demands tremendous discipline, not the
discipline of control, suppression and obedience, you follow? In
itself it demands tremendous attention. When you give your complete
attention, then you will see a totally different kind of thing taking
place, an energy in which there is no repetition, an energy that
isn't coming and going. It is not as though I have it one day and a
month later I don't have it. It implies, keeping the mind completely
empty. Can you do that?
VA: For a while.
K: No, no. I have asked: Can the mind keep itself empty? Then, there
is that energy. You don't even have to ask for it. When there is
space, it is empty and therefore full of energy. So, in cleansing, in
ending the things of the house, of sorrow, can the mind be completely
empty, without any motive, without any desire? When you are working
at this, keeping the house clean, other things come naturally. It
isn't you who are preparing the soil for that. That is meditation.
P: And the nature of that is the transformation of the human mind.
K: You see as Apa Saheb was saying, we are programmed to centuries of
conditioning. When there is the stopping of it, there is an ending of
it. If you pull the plug out of the computer, it can't function any
more. Now, the question is: Can that centre, which is selfishness,
end? And not keep on and on? Can that centre end? When that ends,
there is no movement of time. That is all. When the movement of the
mind from the centre to the periphery stops, time stops. When there
is no movement of selfishness, there is a totally different kind of
movement."
J. Krishnamurti
Exploration into Insight, Bombay, 18th januari, 1977, p. 83- 92 (CD-
Rom code EP79EI-07)

leonmaurer@aol.com wrote:

Yes... Maybe this will help. 

I had that experience (or one similar to it) the first time (and each time 
afterward) -- when I "forced" my mind to concentrate for an extended periodof 
time, without any distractions, on an obscure, apparently occult statement of 
HPB in the SD -- followed by her remark that "the intuitive student will 
understand this." 

Incidentally, at that time, I was also studying WQJ's version of the Yoga 
Aphorisms of Patanjali simultaneously with the SD along with the Voice of the 
Silence and also WQJ's articles on the "culture of concentration." 

Apparently, with the many hints given by WQJ (and later by RC), all those 
books and articles were intended to be supportive of each other -- and, along 
with HPB's "tells" (which I later found scattered randomly throughout the SD) 
spoke directly to prospective initiates (Chelas of theirs I would assume) who 
could wade through and surmount the "blinds" designed to misdirect the casual 
reader from certain occult truths that might prematurely lead to psychic powers 
they might misuse. (Apparently, HPB didn't need to dissemble for such 
purposes, with the phony revisions and mystical gobbledygook introduced by later 
teachers such as AB, CWL and AAB -- all of whom tried to take over the leadof the 
TM from her by claiming a direct connection with her Masters -- whose real 
identity I'm almost sure she covered up with pseudonyms in anticipation of such 
machinations. :-)

The trick (taught to me by a master of meditation, an American scientist 
initiated in Tibetan mystical practices) was, starting with a burning desire to 
know the truth, to repeatedly chant the particular statement by HPB like a 
mantra, while staring at and picturing the shapes of the words and letters during 
each of those extended periods of concentration of the mind (focussed 
meditation) until -- without any effort to hold on to the images that appeared and 
disappeared (which, as I remember, each time it happened, took several hours, if 
not days, and sometimes weeks of repetitive sessions) -- a direct insight, of 
what I can only call, fundamental reality, clearly arose in my consciousness 
that was beyond thought itself. At no time, hower, during these "trips" didI 
lose sight of the fact that I was the eternal witness.

The experience of "Aha" each time I approached the hidden occult teachings in 
the SD that way -- after I held that concentrated focus on the images that 
came up related to the statement and the sounds of the words until I completely 
comprehended (without any linguistic interpretation) what HPB was pointing to 
(usually after a period of sleep between sessions) -- came like a bright flash 
of light and an amazing feeling of utter bliss along with an ecstasy that 
washed through my whole mind and body. (Could that be the "divine energies" 
Subba Row referred to?) 

The aftermath was a profound sense of well being -- since, I would assume, 
all the "lives" in my body were also privy to that insight. Could this be what 
theosophy speaks of as, "Raising the (lower animal) self to the (higher 
spiritual) Self"? 

All I can say is that, at that moment of insight, my self consciousness was 
merged with the Self of the universe and centered in it's zero-point of origin. 
During this meditation, the sound of the chanting and all the images it 
generated, eventually disappeared from my mind and all that was left in my 
"awareness"-- which could be described as the soundless "voice of the silence" -- was 
what I can interpret simply as the infinite vibrations (beyond the limited 
range of our sensory organs) of the abstract motion (infinite angular momentum 
or G-force) circling around that laya-point on an infinite number of axes. 
Incidentally, those circling vibrations had to be "The Word" that was "in the 
Beginning" spoken of in the Biblical version of Genesis. 

In my repeated experience, it proved to me, without a doubt, that that my 
individual self awareness was simply a singular radiation and an integral part of 
that one eternal Self awareness. From that singular point of view, I could th
en spin around and look outward, as if I were at the center of a spherical 
mirror, and see the reflection of everything in the universe involving and 
evolving directly out of that center of universal consciousness -- in the only 
manner imaginable -- knowing its (and now, my own) inherent nature and its 
essential geometry's coupled with its cyclic root of universal energy.

>From there, starting from pure awareness, without any objects of sensory 
perception, I could travel the entire path, step by step, from Spirit down to 
matter through the seven fold levels of consciousness, circling through the 
fractal fields (that I could imagine intuitively), and feeling the vibrations 
increase in subtle crescendoes, step by step, until I returned to sensory awareness 
at the lowest frequency phase spectrum, and reentered the physical/material 
world. (This, BTW, was almost exactly opposite the step by step upward path 
described in the VOS.) Apropos, I remember Chogyam Trungpa explaining in a 
teaching lecture some years before, that such an experience was what Buddhacalled 
"The Great Leap." The opposite way, starting from the physical upward, and 
trying to penetrate the psychic fields, to possibly be blocked there, was what 
Chogyam called "Spiritual Materialism." 

Apparently, HPB gave out all the "seeds" of meditation (that Patanjali 
referred to) necessary to arrive at that "Great Leap." Incidentally, since that 
time, that experience can be repeated by me at will. Although, I rarely need to 
go there anymore -- since the awareness of "emptiness" at the zero-point, that 
is also "fullness" considering its essential "abstract" spin motion, can 
never be forgotten. And, has become the basis of all my present thoughts and 
actions. (Although, there have been times in between when my karma caught up with 
me and caused me to lose it for a while ... But, that's another story. :-) 

The only way I can explain to others what I experienced and actually 
visualized after turning those insights back to thought, was what I have been trying 
to image indirectly in my exposition of the ABC theory for the past 15 years or 
so -- through logical deductive reasoning, starting from zero and extending 
it to infinity -- using "word pictures" along with symbolic diagrams.

With constant reiteration over those years, that explanation, while still 
considered "dense" to some readers -- (possibly because there are certain aspects 
that I hesitate to reveal other than to the "intuitive student" :-) -- has 
been boiled down to a page or two along with a few simple diagrams. 

Hopefully, the same trick of forceful concentration I used in my study of the 
SD might help those who try to realize their self connection with that 
fundamental reality pictured by HPB -- that I have attempted to symbolically 
describe in a simpler and more straightforward way using "the language of this age" 
consistent with modern scientific thinking. It might also be helpful to know 
that I don't think this "Great Leap" method will work for anyone who has any 
desire to stop along the way to attain any psychic powers. :-) 

Best wishes, 

Leonardo 

In a message dated 03/06/05 12:16:57 PM, ramadoss@gbronline.com writes:

>
>Has anyone in this list has first hand experience of the forcible opening?
>It would be very useful and educational to hear some first hand account.
>
>mkr
>
>
>At 04:03 PM 03/06/05 +0000, Anand Gholap wrote:
>>Christina,
>>
>>Subba Rao has written occultism involves forcibly opening of
>>consciousness and there is large downpouring of divine energies.
>>Clara Codd has quoted it in 'The way of the disciple'
>>
>>Anand Gholap
>
>



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