Theos-Talk Archives (March 2005 Message tt00020)

neither did HPB =)

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand Gholap" <AnandGholap@A...> 
wrote:
> 
> Apparently though Katherine Tingley succeeded Judge, she was 
> not 'appointed' by Judge as his successor. This is despite the fact 
> that Judge was ill for long time and it was natural for him to 
> imagine who would be successor if he dies. Yet information 
available 
> shows he did not 'appoint' anybody as his successor. 
> Anand Gholap
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Alaya" <lalaya7@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > we can find in the blavatskyarchieves about Mrs. Tingley
> > ". . . Mrs. Katherine Tingley. . . [was] a professional psychic 
and 
> > trance medium in New York. . . .For those of us who followed Mr. 
> > Judge in 1895, later discovered that about the time of H.P.B.'s 
> death 
> > or soon after (the exact date is not known to me), Mr. Judge came 
> > under the influence of this woman, who is possessed of 
considerable 
> > hypnotic and other dangerous powers. He had consulted her, in 
her 
> > capacity as a medium, which led eventually to her obtaining a 
> > complete hold over him, and also over Theosophical friends whom 
he 
> > introduced to her, and to their accepting her as a Chela of the 
> > Masters; one for whom Mr. Judge believed he had been told to 
seek.  
> > She gave him "messages" purporting to be from Them, but 
> subsequently 
> > I discovered that most - if not all- of those which he gave out 
as 
> > having been received by him had come "through" Mrs. Tingley. The 
> > whole history of this extraordinary delusion is a long and 
> > complicated one, some of it being contained in the E.S. documents 
> in 
> > my possession.". . . 
> > T. Collins said:
> > "in the Tibetan
> > tradition high incarnations are found and taught from an early 
age."
> > 
> > Anyone can be taught from an early age
> > Not necessarily this means a `high incarnation'
> > 
> > "It is not only a question of anyones accomplishments and
> > performance of one's duties but also of degrees of consciousness."
> > 
> > Yeah, the degree of consuousness is extremely important...
> > And besan was a chela on probation only
> > While Judge was an accepted chela 30 years standing
> > Even though... they were not a HPB...
> > 
> > 
> > >>>>>In a message dated 01/29/05 2:03:37 PM, Anand Gholap... 
writes:
> > In 1900 Master K.H. wrote letter to Annie Besant who was the head
> > of
> > ES-Adyar with following words " The greatest of your trials is
> > yet to
> > come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength-
> > K.H."
> > It is clear from words of Master that Annie Besant was Their true
> > agent in Esoteric matters and Adyar TS as only true Theosophical
> > 
> > Is it so clear, or you just want to believe on that?
> > Now, about the letter from the Master in 1900
> > We should analyse it carefully.
> > First of all.. many people received letters from the masters, the 
> > vast majority as HPB atests us, failed... and Damodar was the 
only 
> > true sucess.
> > Maybe the SAINT pedophyle Leadbeater was also a failure...
> > 
> > Besant having received a letter doesn't mean that SHE was THEIR 
> TRUE 
> > AGENT... this is an exageration.
> > Whoever a little usefull would be leading the T.S, this person 
> would 
> > receive a letter... it is not because she is Annie Besant, is 
> because 
> > at that present moment it was she, not other, that was 
responsible 
> > for the T.S.. 
> > 1900 was the last year the Masters could have their influence (as 
> we 
> > learn from HPB who sais that every last quarter os a century the 
> > Masters exercise their influence. If they still cared at least a 
> bit 
> > about the T.S they would surely send a last advice...
> > The letter seem to be sent with an intention of saying `don't let 
> it 
> > die' (the society)
> > It doesn't seem a letter to give authority to Besant or confirme 
> her 
> > as the only anr true sucesssor of HPB (and we know she wasn't.. 
and 
> > the E.S Council responsible for the T.S after H.P.B's death 
> nominated 
> > Judge and Besant, and avid for power she couldn't accept not to 
be 
> > the only one)
> > You can find some information on the sucessorship right after 
> H.P.B's 
> > death here
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/22531
> > 
> > The letter's intention seems to be beg Besant to stop the way the 
> T.S 
> > was being led... a last hope...
> > The same letter would be sent to other if other was in charge...
> > 
> > Now, let us notice something about the letter
> > What about its content?
> > It begins with a strong criticism by the master about the way the 
> T.S 
> > was going...
> > "A psychic and a pranayamist who has got confused by the 
vagaries 
> of 
> > the members. The T.S. And its members are slowly MANUFACTURING a 
> > CREED. Says a Tibetan proverb "credulity breeds credulity and 
ends 
> in 
> > HYPOCRISY." How FEW are they who can KNOW ANYTHINGABOUT US. Are 
we 
> to 
> > be propitiated and made idols of? Is the worship of a new trinity 
> > made up of the blessed M., Upasika and yourself to take the place 
> of 
> > exploded creeds? We ask NOT for the WORSHIP OF OURSELVES. The 
> > disciple should in no way be fettered. BEWARE OF AN ESOTERIC 
> POPERY."
> > Doesn't all this support the quotes I posted from Alice 
Cleather's 
> > book on 25/02?
> > Besant was being acused by old members to create a creed. And the 
> > Master is warning that the T.S is going on the way to hypocrisy. 
> She 
> > was being criticized by the old and tried members who knew H.P.B 
> that 
> > she didn't accept that someone could think differently from her. 
> And 
> > notice that it was only 7 years latter (if my memory doesn't 
fail) 
> > that she was caught in Leadbeater's trap... and things went worse 
> and 
> > worse...
> > The master even compares the T.S with POPERY.. this doesn't seem 
a 
> > good thing to me
> > Is this the `wonderfull letter confirming the saint besant as a 
> true 
> > and only sucessor'? as some seem to think....
> > And they ask her to stop the worship of themselves... To give 
> > authorithy to her own sayings she started to talk a lot about 
> them.. 
> > something you can see that they didn't like...
> > And if the Master felt necessity to atest that FEW know anything 
> > about them... probably there were some people saying things about 
> > them and and telling that their teachings come from them.. and 
that 
> > was a lie. 
> > What else can we notice from this letter?
> > 
> > "The intense desire to see upasika reincarnate at once has raised 
a 
> > MISLEADING MAYAVIC IDEATION. Upasika has useful work to do on 
> higher 
> > planes and cannot come again so soon. The T.S. must safely be 
> ushered 
> > into the new century. You have for some time been UNDER DELUDING 
> > INFLUENCES. Shun PRIDE, VANITY and LOVE OF POWER. Be not guided 
by 
> > emotion but learn to stand alone. Be accurate and critical rather 
> > than CREDULOUS. The mistakes of the past in the old religions 
must 
> > not be glossed over with imaginary explanations."
> > 
> > All this statements from the Master support what Mrs. Alice 
> Cleather 
> > was trying to show on her book "H.P.B - a great betrayal"
> > The first sentence refers to something that alice also explains, 
> that 
> > Besant believed that H.P.B was reborn in india and was a child 
that 
> > was under Besant's influnce. With this argument she publishes the 
> > secret material from the Inner Group (breaking her secrecy 
pledge, 
> > which should have been sacred to her, unfortunatelly it 
wasn't...) 
> > She says that the `little HPB' asked her to do so and also that 
> > the "little HPB" asked her to revised and correct [mislead] the 
S.D 
> > and many other things...
> > And then the Master himself tells her that she is under a mayavic 
> > ideation.
> > And the Master himself warned her that she was under delunding 
> > influences (and this is all Mrs. Alice Cleather, M. Lévy, W. 
> > Kingsland and others war trying to prove, to protect the new 
member 
> > to fall into the same trap – so what is so wrong about warning 
> people 
> > of something even the master admited to be wrong on Mrs. Besant?)
> > And the master also seem to agree with Mrs. Cleather and all the 
> > others that Mrs. Besant was showing pride, vanity and love of 
> power, 
> > and that was what was leading her.. not the true `feelings' a 
real 
> > theosophist should have.
> > The masters don't interfere in worlds affairs... Besant was head 
of 
> > the T.S by her own politics and fakes (like confirming that she 
> > herself has destroyed all the proofs that were in favour to 
Judge). 
> > They didn't nominate her... all they could do is to asure that 
the 
> > the T.S wasn't going to lead the foul road to popery... and if 
the 
> > T.S was working well they would NOT have felt the necessity to 
send 
> a 
> > last letter trying to correct the mistakes
> > The only good thing we can find in the letter is the final 
> sentence , 
> > that they STILL haven't given up... But considering the way 
things 
> > were few years latter this letter... I guess unfortunately we can 
> be 
> > quite sure that the T.S was a dead letter...
> > 
> > Still in the letter
> > "NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO CLAIM AUTHORITY OVER A PUPIL or his 
> > conscience. Ask him not what he believes. All who are sincere and 
> > pure minded must have admittance. The crest wave of intellectual 
> > advancement must be taken hold of and guided into spirituality. 
It 
> > CANNOT BE FORCER INTO BELIEFS AND EMOTIONAL WORSHIP."
> > >> and what has Mr. Leadbeater , supported by Besant, done????? 
> (with 
> > Krishnamurti and maybe others) 
> > 
> > and more criticizm by the Master on the letter
> > "Misleading secrecy has given the death blow to numerous 
> > organizations." – this was arising in the T.S.. little by 
little...
> > 
> > "The CANT (hipocrisy) ABOUT the "Masters" MUST be silently but 
> firmly 
> > PUT DOWN.... THE CONTINUAL REFERENCES TO OURSELVES AND THE 
> REPETITION 
> > OF OUR NAMES RAISES UP A CONFUSED AURA THAT HINDERS OUR WORK"
> > 
> > And what have Mr. Leadbeater and Besant done??? Published works 
on 
> > the Masters, open to the unfiting public their sacred lifes and 
> > names, and made disrespecful and ridiculous statmens like this 
ones 
> > above in one of their books
> > 
> > "In the course of their investigations these two (Besant and
> > Leadbeater) look up on the one side, the past incarnations of him
> > whom Mrs. Besant calls the "Master Jesus", that is, of the "Jesus"
> > born in 105 b.C; and on the other side, the past lives of the 
being
> > whom she calls the "Lord Maitreya, the present Bodhisattva, the
> > Supreme Teacher of the World" whose ego at a given moment replaced
> > that of "Jesus", this being the last incarnation of the Christ 
whose
> > immediate return (as Krishnamurti) she is announcing.
> > "Let us quote from their account of the incarnations of 
the "Supreme
> > Teacher"...
> > `In the Fourth Root Race we again find the personage supposed to
> > be "Maitreya" as the husband of the ego claimed by these authors 
as
> > that of "Master K.H". Mrs. Besant is again incarnated in the 
family
> > as daughter, the eldest sister of the "Master M."; "Maitreya", 
being
> > at this time the head of the trime."
> > 
> > 
> > >>Has Mrs. Besant given atention to Master K.H request to stop 
> > refering to them and using their names? Has she respected his will
> > No, she made quite the contrary
> > And for many years the T.S did turned into a creed under 
> Leadbeater's 
> > guidance.
> > 
> > And now.. Do we have the right to criticize the Masters criticism 
> on 
> > her.. is she this Splendind, wonderful and santificated woman 
some 
> > are here trying to prove?
> > Maybe the Inner group members weren't so wrong to criticize her..
> > And who are we to judge them.. and to judge assertions of the 
> Master 
> > himself?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Truth Collins" 
> > <tcollins93006@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Did W.Q. Judge appoint Tingley as his successer? I don't think 
> he 
> > > did. I have read articles to this effect. Look in the ULT 
> > articles 
> > > online about Crosbie for more on this.
> > > 
> > > In my opinion, people like H.P. Blavatsky and W.Q. Judge are 
> born 
> > > already having reached a certain degree of consciousness. Not 
to 
> > > mention the efforts after being born. For example, in the 
> Tibetan 
> > > tradition high incarnations are found and taught from an early 
> age.
> > > 
> > > The question of successorship is more compicated than it 
first 
> > > looks. It is not only a question of anyones accomplishments 
and 
> > > performance of one's duties but also of degrees of 
consciousness.
> > > 
> > > What is the attitude of someone with the degrees of 
> consciousness 
> > > of say H.P. Blavatsky or H.P. Blavatsky? Well, whatever it is, 
> it 
> > > is beneficiant.
> > > 
> > > Blavatsky and Judge helped the people that are now being 
argued 
> > > about. This is the attitude that I recommend. An attitude 
that 
> > > helps the other, if anything.
> > > 
> > > A. Besant and K. Tingley too. They helped as they saw fit.
> > > 
> > > This is the common denominator between them.
> > > 
> > > There is a saying that the least common denominator usually 
rules 
> a 
> > > conversation. This in a world dominated by the three rulers: 
> > money, 
> > > power and sex.
> > > 
> > > The inverse seems to be closer to the truth for people like 
H.P. 
> > > Blavatsky. The higher triad of atma, buddhi, manas is not 
> > > subjugated by peer pressure.
> > > 
> > > Namaste, Truth C.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, leonmaurer@a... wrote:
> > > > Unfortuunately, Besant's strengh ran out and she couldn't 
hack 
> it 
> > > after she 
> > > > fell for and got caught up in the black magical snares of the 
> > > impostor 
> > > > Leadbeater. I'm sure K.H. was, to say the least, very 
> > > disappointed by that. :-)
> > > > 
> > > > Lenny Maurer
> > > > 
> > > > In a message dated 01/29/05 2:03:37 PM, AnandGholap@A... 
writes:
> > > > 
> > > > >After splitting of the TS, in 1890s, some people were and 
> still 
> > > are 
> > > > >confused about which society is actually Masters' Society. 
> Judge 
> > > died 
> > > > >in 1896 after appointing Katherin Tingley as his successor. 
> > > > >In 1900 Master K.H. wrote letter to Annie Besant who was the 
> > head 
> > > of 
> > > > >ES-Adyar with following words " The greatest of your trials 
is 
> > > yet to 
> > > > >come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your 
> strength-
> >  
> > > > >K.H." 
> > > > >
> > > > >It is clear from words of Master that Annie Besant was Their 
> > true 
> > > > >agent in Esoteric matters and Adyar TS as only true 
> Theosophical 
> > > > >Society. 
> > > > >
> > > > >Anand Gholap