Theos-Talk Archives (February 2005 Message tt00424)

Pablo Sender <pasender@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:


Yes, Cass. I agree with you.

In my view Krishnamurti was a theosophist. In fact I wrote an article (published in The Theosophist, Dec. 2004), where there is a comparison between HPB teachings and Krishnamurti statements.



You say:

"I found Krishnamurti very helpful in waking people up to the workings of the Lower Mind, but unfortunately he doesn’t attribute a Higher Mind and can in some people cause the Antankarayana to be severed, which leaves thesepeople without an overshadowing Higher Mind principle".



May be you're referring to HPB's statement about exoteric teachings of Advaita Vedanta. Don’t you?

YES - But a reference to Psuedo Advaita is ringing a bell in my head in regard to Krishnamurti.



I don’t think that this is the case of K. teachings. In fact, Krishnamurti put the basis for ascending through antahkarana (see The SD Vol. V, AdyarEdition, "The seven scales of consciousness" -I think this is the title inEnglish-)

Can I read this through the web? It sounds very interesting.



¿Have you read Krishnamurti’s dialogues with David Bohm? There you havea lot of references to the (universal) "Mind" as higher than the brain. Also, when K talks about "insight" he is really talking about Buddhi-Manas, or, more exactly, Manas Taijasa.

No, but would also like to check it out.  



I hope this can be helpful

Very much, thanks Pablo

Cass

ps Its a nuisance this time difference, when I am awake everyone else is asleep and when I am asleep everyone else is awake! It's frustrating.



Best regards



Pablo



----------------------------------------

Hi Pablo

In response to your question, 
so H.P.B could say that Krishnamurti was a theosophist too (this is not 
a speculation, similarities between they do exist). And could you say 
that Krishnamurti teachings are Theosophy?

I have been reading a lot about Krishnamurti over the past couple of 
days, and that organization has had as many problems as the TS. However, 
Krishnamurti did start out as a Theosophist but broke away and taught 
an ancient form of yoga, the Advaita system. I found Krishnamurti very 
helpful in waking people up to the workings of the Lower Mind, but 
unfortunately he doesnt attribute a Higher Mind and can in some people 
cause the Antankarayana to be severed, which leaves these people without an 
overshadowing Higher Mind principle. (That is worth a study in itself!) 
Now as I have not a Higher Mind understanding, I can only quote a 
higher authority than myself, i.e. HPB who said this (incidentally she died 
prior to Krishnamurti's birth) and here was referring to the Advaita 
system of Yoga. I know, by personal experience, that to take on board 
the Krishnamurti system can cause mental confusion and intellectual 
isolation.

What else are we to do but to quote HPB/Masters until we know it for 
ourself. I guess it is an act of faith and belief in someone else, but 
providing there is a logical and reasonable explanation inherent in what 
she says, can't we can accept it at that level ( as a definite maybe) 
until we find out for ourselves?

Cass


theos-talk@yahoogroups.com wrote:
There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: KRISHNAMURTI
From: MKR
2. Re: KRISHNAMURTIlast day on OS
From: "krishtar" 
3. Re: theosophy & politics
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins 
4. Re: Master K.H. accepted C.W. Leadbeater as disciple
From: Cass Silva 
5. Re: RE: theosophy & politics
From: Cass Silva 
6. Re: Re: ACCURACY OR ERROR ? hate Leadbeater? mind realms arrogance
From: Cass Silva 
7. Krishnamurti "System"
From: MKR
8. Re: ACCURACY OR ERROR ? hate Leadbeater? mind realms arrogance
From: "Perry Coles" 

9. Re: Master K.H. accepted C.W. Leadbeater as disciple
From: samblo@cs.com
10. Re: Master K.H. accepted C.W. Leadbeater as disciple
From: Cass Silva 
11. Re: Krishnamurti "System"
From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" 
12. Re: KRISHNAMURTIlast day on OS
From: Cass Silva 
13. Re: Re: Krishnamurti "System"
From: Cass Silva 
14. Re: Krishnamurti "System"
From: Cass Silva 
15. Re: Re: Master K.H. accepted C.W. Leadbeater as disciple
From: Cass Silva 
16. Antahkarana
From: Cass Silva 
17. Terrorism
From: Cass Silva 
18. Skepticism
From: Cass Silva 
19. Re: Master K.H. accepted C.W. Leadbeater as disciple
From: "christinaleestemaker" 
20. Re: Terrorism
From: "christinaleestemaker" 
21. Re: Re: Terrorism
From: Cass Silva 
22. Re: Re: Master K.H. accepted C.W. Leadbeater as disciple
From: Cass Silva 
23. Re: Skepticism
From: "christinaleestemaker" 
24. Re: Re: Terrorism
From: "krishtar" 
25. Re: Re: Skepticism
From: Cass Silva 


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Message: 1 
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:30:32 -0600
From: MKR
Subject: Re: KRISHNAMURTI

His statement when he shut down the Order of the Star and left all 
organizations says it all. I think it is available on-line if you search 
with any search engine.

mkr

At 06:38 PM 02/14/05 -0800, Cass Silva wrote:


>Does anyone know the reasons why Krishnamurti broke away from the TS 
>Society? (besides the Leadbeater affair).
>



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Message: 2 
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:56:58 -0300
From: "krishtar" 
Subject: Re: KRISHNAMURTIlast day on OS

Hi friend Cass

Just an add:
The year that JK dissolved the order was in 1929
Below you can find the speech Krishnamurti did to almost 3000 " Star" people from the Order of Star, in the Dutch Camp Ommen.
The sad part of the story is that if you look for the reasons of his reaction on our common sources avaiable, it is stated that it was because << the theosophists wanted to ellect him as the vehicle for Buddha Maytrea to inhabit in to become the long waited " World Teacher"..hope you´ll enjoy reading it and send your comments as everybody can also do.

Regards

Krishtar

J. Krishnamurti Speech:



"We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain....

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by anypath whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless,unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organised;nor should any organisation be formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others.

This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley....

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organisations searching for Truth.I do not want to belong to any organisation of a spiritual kind; please understand this....

If an organisation be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it.

This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certainthing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this; not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions, may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.

Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want thissettled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussion year after year.

A newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organisation in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because he said: "What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you." If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves?....

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole, not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal, I desire those, who seek to understand me, to be free, not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears - from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want any thing from anyone. You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority which you think will lead you tospirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers - a miracle - transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyse what I am saying, be critical, so that youmay understand thoroughly, fundamentally....

For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organised, you have lookedfor someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you new encouragement, who would set you free - and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has madeyou different - not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organisation of the Star become different?....

You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else.... when I saylook within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organisation?....

No man from outside can make you free; nor can organised worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organisation, nor throwing yourselves into work, make you free.You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an alter and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organisations become your chief concern. "How many members are there in it?" That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. "How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false." I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. If there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough....

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity....

You have been accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible?....

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without a beginning and without an end, will walk together with greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become theflame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is mypurpose. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to know -there will be real co-operation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thingthan all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So those are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I havenot been persuaded to it by anyone - I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organisations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. Myonly concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free."




----- Original Message ----- 
From: MKR 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World KRISHNAMURTI



His statement when he shut down the Order of the Star and left all 
organizations says it all. I think it is available on-line if you search 
with any search engine.

mkr

At 06:38 PM 02/14/05 -0800, Cass Silva wrote:


>Does anyone know the reasons why Krishnamurti broke away from the TS 
>Society? (besides the Leadbeater affair).
>



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Message: 3 
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:23:33 -0800
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins 
Subject: Re: theosophy & politics

Adelaise,

One thing I have always deeply regretted was not seeking out and 
contacting the Temple of the People for the original conference in 1984. 
Within a year or so after the conference, My wife and I did find the 
community and spent a day with Mr. Forgostein, then Guardian-in-Chief 
and Ms. Shumway. We took lots of pictures and published a feature (with 
pictures) on this Theosophical Center in the Southern California 
Newsletter, which went out to about a thousand people at the time. For 
many TSA members, that article was the first they heard of the Temple of 
the People. Since then, we have managed, one way or another to keep 
contact--though it seems to be only one in four to five years they we 
are able to get to that part of the state. 

>I remember very vividly mention of the coming "paradigm shift," and 
>mention as well of networking on the internet. The latter has 
>certainly come to pass, and seems to me to be a very powerful tool in 
>the dissemination of teachings. If I may, could we talk a bit about 
>the paradigm shift? Is this perhaps a way of considering how 
>theosophy can help serious people understand how to become effective 
>participants in the tremendous changes occurring in this cycle? 
>

Thomas Kuhn in his work The Structure of Scientific Revolutions is 
credited with coining the term "paradigm shift." Basically he describes 
how science goes through four stages to show how science will go along 
for centuries then suddenly change. Examples are Darwin's Origin of 
Species, which replaced Biblical creation with evolution. Copernicus 
and Galileo who replaced an earth centered universe with a sun centered 
universe. Einstein who replaced a Newtonian-Euclidian universe with one 
of relativity etc. 

1. Normal science: There is an overall world view from which data is 
viewed. This is called the dominant paradigm.

2. Anomalies: Data accumulates which does not fit into the normal view.

3. Resistance: Leaders of the dominant paradigm rise up to protect it.

4. The new paradigm become the norm.


This same pattern works not only in science, but in any institutional 
system, whether it be science, a school of philosophy, a religious 
denomination, or even a business corporation. Some examples are the 
Protestant revolution in Church history; The philosophical abandonment 
of metaphysics in the eighteenth century; the shift from theory X to 
theory Y in the 1970s for the corporate management of labor. 

Unfortunately, to bring about a paradigm shift requires a great deal of 
pain, and often martyrs--which occurs in the third stage. There are not 
many people in any organization who are willing to make that kind of 
self-sacrifice, and when they do, they do not always succeed. My first 
observance of stage three of a paradigm shift in progress was in TSA in 
1965. The National President at that time, Dr. Henry Smith was trying 
to make changes in the TSA on several levels. He was trying to:

1. Normalize relationships between the Canadian Section and TSA.
2. Have Judge acknowledged in TSA as one of the three primary founders 
of the TS.
3. Network and cooperatively work with knowledgeable Theosophists in 
other Theosophical Organizations.
4. Limit the influence of the ES upon the TS.

While he was effectively (but not officially) removed from office at the 
1965 National Convention, some changes did come about. Most notably I 
would credit Smith's efforts in making possible, a portrait of Judge 
eventually being hung along side Blavatsky's and Olcott's in the 
headquarters' building. Though not everybody accepted Judge as a 
co-founder, over a long period of time, it is becoming the new paradigm 
among members--most of whom had no ideas that it ever way any other way. 
I particularly remember Eunice Layton, even towards the end of her life, 
opening meetings at Krotona, saying "the Theosophical Society was 
founded by H.P. Blavatsky and H.S. Olcott." Eventually a compromise 
was reached and I would often hear: "The Theosophical Society was 
founded by H.P. Blavatsky, H.S. Olcott, and others." 

So, Smith started the ball rolling and suffered greatly for it. There 
have been other efforts, and other martyrs, and changes have slowly come 
about. Future Theosophical historians may someday recognize the work 
done by those who brought about those changes. But not enough times has 
yet passed for that to happen.

I might add here, that sometimes the charges take a long time to occur. 
HPB played a very important role in creating a paradigm shift that did 

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