Theos-Talk Archives (January 2005 Message tt00897)

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell"
<danielhcaldwell@y...> wrote:

 
> Perry wrote:
> 
> =====================================================
> Few of us claim any special spiritual status 
> that Leadbeater did. He therefore has put himself 
> as fair game to be put under the spotlight of 
> scrutiny for theosophical students as we try and 
> assess the veracity of his writings and claims.
> Leadbeater made the claim that he was in contact 
> with and a close disciple of the very same 
> adepts as Madame Blavatsky.
> 
> Repeatedly and clearly he made the claim 
> that his teachings came from these same Adepts.
> ===================================================
> 
> Pedro replied:
> 
> =================================================
> Can you point out which of his books he claimed 
> to come from the Adepts?
> ==================================================
> 
> Pedro, Perry wrote that Leadbeater claimed his teachings
> came from HPB's adepts. I don't know if Leadbeater
> specifically claimed that HIS BOOKS came from the Adepts.
> 
> Are you now trying to tell us that Leadbeater's teachings
> did NOT come from the Masters? Are you trying to tell
> us that after 50 years of "chelaship" Mr. Leadbeater
> did NOT know what the teachings were as given by
> the Masters?
> 
> Throughout Leadbeater's writings he makes innumerable
> statements of his intimate knowledge of the Masters
> and of his own personal contact and communication with the
> Masters.
> 
> Let me again quote what Leadbeater said on one occasion:
> 
> "I have stood beside your President [Mrs. Besant] in the presence of
> the Supreme Director of Evolution on this globe, and I know whereof
> I speak. Let the wise hear my words, and act accordingly."
> 
> This is quite a claim!
> 
> I KNOW WHEREOF I SPEAK. LET THE WISE HEAR MY WORDS...
> 
> Notice also what else he said on that occasion:
> 
> "She [Mrs. Besant] is a pupil of our Masters; from the fount of Their
> archaic wisdom she derives her own, the plans which she is carrying
> out are Their plans for the welfare of the world. THINK THEREFORE,
> HOW GREAT AN HONOUR IT IS FOR YOU that you should be permitted
> to work under her, for in doing so you are virtually working under
> Them. THINK HOW WATCHFUL YOU SHOULD BE TO MISS NO HINT WHICH FALLS
> FROM HER LIPS...." caps added
> 
> And what FALLS FROM ANNIE BESANT'S LIPS...?????
> 
> She says:
> 
> "By hard, patient work he [CWL] has won rewards . . .
> until he stands perhaps the most trusted of his
> Master's disciples ON THE THRESHOLD OF DIVINITY."
> 
> Readers with any sense should rightfully conclude that Mr. Leadbeater
> (if his and Mrs. Besant's claims as given above are true) should have
> known better than anyone else exactly what the teachings of the
> Masters and of the Master K.H. were.
> 
> In effect, taking together the two quotes, what Leadbeater says about 
> Mrs. Besant equally applies to himself.
> 
> THINK HOW WATCHFUL YOU SHOULD BE TO MISS NO HINT WHICH FALLS
> FROM HER [or Leadbeater's ] LIPS...." 


Daniel:

I would consider Besant's and Leadbeater's views of each other as
OPINIONS, not teachings. Besides, both of them wrote under their own
name and took personal responsibility for it. 

Is the following passage from the Mahatma Letters a teaching or an
opinion?


"You will certainly have trouble with her [HPB] about the "female
branch." Her scorn for the sex — has no bounds and she can hardly be
persuaded that any good can ever come from that quarter. I will be
frank with you again. Neither myself nor any of us — K.H. being
entirely left out of the question — would consent to become the
founders, let alone the conductors of a female branch — we all having
had enough of our anis [nuns]. Yet we confess that a great good may
result of such a movement, the females having such an influence over
their children and the men in the houses, you being such an old and
experienced hand in that direction could with Mr. Hume's help be of
immense use to K.H., from within the area of whose "loveable nature,"
with the exception of his sister, females were always excluded and
love for his country and humanity reigned alone. He knows nothing of
the creatures — you do. He always felt the need of enrolling women —
yet would never meddle with them. There's a chance for you to help
him." (ML 33, chronological)


Or this one:


"Our doctrine knows no compromises. It either affirms or denies, for
it never teaches but that which it knows to be the truth. Therefore,
we deny God both as philosophers and as Buddhists." (ML 88) 


Yet, HPB, their disciple, did have a use for the concept of God, as
can be seen in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY.

In the Introduction to one of their most controversial book, MAN:
WHENCE, HOW AND WHITHER, Besant and Leadbeater wrote:


"The writers of this book, having been taught the method of gaining
touch [with the "Memory of Nature"], but being subject to the
dificulties involved in their uncompleted evolution, have done their
best to observe and transmit, but are fully conscious of the many
weaknesses which mar their work. Occasional help has been given to
them by the Elder Brethren, in the way of broad outlines here and
there, and dates where necessary.

As in the case of the related books which have preceded this in the
Theosophical movement, the "treasure is in the earthen vessels", and,
while gratefully acknowledging the help graciously given, they take
the responsibility of all errors entirely on themselves." 


Pedro