Theos-Talk Archives (January 2005 Message tt00644)

Hi Cass, I've really racked my brain over this and am still not able
to put it really succinctly.
Maybe at some point I may do as you suggest or perhaps a collection of
students could work together on such a project.

For me its a principle of honesty and openness in approach.
I just can't see how real freedom of thought can exist without the
freedom to write and express ideas without the fear of censorship.

I always remember Noam Chomky's famous quote :

"Goebbels was in favour of free speech for views he liked. 
So was Stalin. If you're really in favour of free speech, then you're
in favour of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise. 
Otherwise, you're not in favour of free speech."

This rings so deeply and truly for me at any rate.
Not an easy ideal but it seems to me if we want freedom of speech we
need to be prepared to allow opinions "we despise" a voice.
This "despised" voice may turn out be rubbish but it could also be the
voice of reason and wisdom.

Perry



--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@y...> wrote:
> Dear Perry
> Why dont you post it to all the TS's around the world, including Adyar?
> Cass
> 
> Perry Coles <perrycoles@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello All,
> Thanks Jerry for taking the time to do this post it was very 
> interesting .
> Sorry to hear about your family members illness.
> 
> It seems that these historical issues need to really discussed openly 
> in the Society.
> I believe that open historical dialogue is important as it can start 
> to clear away a lot of the underlying grievances and issues in the 
> society by simply bringing them to light.
> 
> If the society does not want to be partisan to any particular ism it 
> seems to me open discussion of some of this historical material needs 
> to be discussed in lodges and branches and through published articles 
> allowing for different perspectives and points of view.
> 
> If the reason for being of the Adyar Society is solely the promotion 
> of the first object it needs to be open to differing historical and 
> philosophical opinions and points of view in its publications.
> 
> If the reason Bailey material is not promoted is in order to avoid 
> takeovers I can understand that but I would say if a knowledge of the 
> historical reasons was more widely known by the membership it is able 
> to help lectern any animosity that may arise from this issue.
> 
> The same could be said of Leadbeater and Annie Besant if members are 
> actively encouraged study the history and made aware that there are 
> differences in the teachings given by Leadbeater and those of HPB and 
> her Mahatma's it allows both sides of the picture to be aired and 
> given voice so that members and students may make up their own minds 
> and explore both points of view. 
> 
> Perhaps I am politically naïve about this but it seems to me some 
> kind of 5 or 10 year plan could be implemented to enable an 
> evolutionary path for the Society to head down.
> 
> Rules of protocol and procedure could surely be drawn up to enable a 
> more open dialogue without it descending into just a mudslinging 
> match, but that allow genuine intellectual rigor and investigation to 
> be carried on in its journals and publication regarding these 
> politically delicate issues.
> 
> Comparison of the various theosophical writers perspectives comes 
> under the 2nd object of the society done in a manner that takes into 
> account the 1st object.
> 
> This does not mean that it avoids conflicting opinions but rather 
> that it allows a variety of commentaries to be voiced and heard done 
> in the spirit of investigation into life's mysteries and truths. That 
> is true Brotherhood - Unity in Diversity.
> 
> Aspects of historical truth may be a little distressing to some 
> however this is unavoidable due to the nature of human relationships 
> and behavior.
> 
> I think a mature human being should be able to handle debate 
> difference of opinion with someone and still be able to shake hands 
> and have a cup of tea with them afterwards.
> This is an ideal I know but isn't that what theosophy is all about.
> As the Mahatmas say "try"
> 
> Perry
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins 
> wrote:
> > Hello Perry, Paul, Kristar and all,
> > 
> > A family member is seriously ill, so I'm afraid that I can't afford 
> to 
> > put much time into this interesting conversation. I would however, 
> > recommend Joseph Ross' "Krotona of Old Hollywood vol. II" which has 
> the 
> > best collection of documents concerning this issue. He also tells 
> me 
> > that more documents will be in the forth coming vol. III. In the 
> mean 
> > time, I can make a few remarks that might clarify things a little:
> > 
> > Regarding the hostility towards Alice Evans and Foster Bailey, 
> there 
> > seems to be several issues involved, but the one that directly led 
> to 
> > their ousting from Krotona, Hollywood, was their campaign for a 
> more 
> > democratic community. At the time, the ES authority overshadowed 
> > everything at Krotona in those days. The strain between the ES and 
> TS 
> > interests, eventuated in their separation in 1926, when the TS 
> moved its 
> > headquarters to Wheaton IL. and the ES to Ojai CA. Alice and 
> Foster 
> > were not alone in their effort to democratize Krotona. I have here 
> a 
> > letter from the late Astrologer, Dame Rudhyar, who was also at 
> Krotona 
> > at the time, and was a student of B.P. Wadia. According to 
> Rudhyar, 
> > both he and Wadia were supportive of Alice and Foster's efforts. 
> > However, Rudhyar also pointed out in the same letter that his 
> support 
> > for AAB's cause did not necessarily mean support for their 
> particular 
> > philosophical ideas. One of the fiercest opponents', and one of 
> the 
> > people responsible for Alice and Foster's dismissal was L.W. 
> Rogers. 
> > 
> > In Alice Bailey's Autobiography she also mentions resistance to her 
> > statements that she had also been in contact and was a disciple of 
> KH, 
> > one of HPB's Masters. This, I think is another, but closely related 
> > issue. When she gave voice to this belief in the ES, a great deal 
> of 
> > animosity was aroused. Keep in mind that the word in those days 
> was 
> > that one became a disciple only through the ES--therefore AAB's 
> remark 
> > indicating that she was under KH's guidance outside of the ES 
> circles 
> > created the threat of a competitive situation. 
> > 
> > AAB also mentions receiving receiving ES papers but, the papers she 
> > received and used came from a source outside of the E.S.; a Richard 
> > Prater, who according to AAB, gave her a copy of the instructions 
> to use 
> > as she liked. She did. AAB also mentions that she joined the ES in 
> 1918, 
> > so one could argue that she was under a pledge, concerning ES 
> material, 
> > regardless of where she received them. She also mentions in her 
> > Autobiography that the instructions she received from Prater 
> matched the 
> > instructions which she had seen "elsewhere." This raises an 
> ethical 
> > issue which might be worth a discussion in itself.
> > 
> > Beyond this, AAB's writings include teachings that can be found in 
> ES 
> > material written between 1910 and 1920 (all of which would have 
> been 
> > available to her). Her obligations concerning this material also 
> raises 
> > interesting questions. On the other hand, if one believes AAB to be 
> a 
> > disciple of KH, and a channeler of DK, one can say that while she 
> may 
> > have seen the information first through ES sources, she also got it 
> from 
> > DK. 
> > 
> > Another interesting item is that I am aware of several former ES 
> members 
> > who were expelled because they were also involved with Meditation 
> Mount, 
> > an Alice Bailey type center also located at Ojai. As I understand 
> it, 
> > their crime was participating in Meditation Mount meditation 
> practices, 
> > not authorized by the ES. I would every much like to hear from 
> anyone 
> > who has any first hand information concerning these incidents or 
> others 
> > of a similar nature. These incidents do suggest to me that the ES 
> still 
> > has issues concerning Alice Bailey teachings. Perhaps some of you 
> have 
> > a different explanation.
> > 
> > --j
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > kpauljohnson wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > >>Can anyone shine some light on this?
> > >>
> > >>Perry
> > >> 
> > >>
> > >
> > >Hi Perry,
> > >
> > >Perhaps Jerry H-E can explain further, but I recall years ago that 
> > >he explained the otherwise inexplicable hostility towards Bailey 
> in 
> > >the Adyar TS. Inexplicable, that is, because she seems to rile 
> the 
> > >powers that be more than Steiner, the Prophets, Purucker, etc. 
> etc. 
> > >whereas her teachings are actually more in line with Adyar/ES/CWL 
> > >orthodoxy than all those other claimants to Mahatmic inspiration.
> > >
> > >That similarity is actually at the root of the hostility, because 
> > >Bailey was an ES member and after leaving the TS incorporated 
> secret 
> > >Leadbeaterian doctrines into her writings. Thus she was regarded 
> as 
> > >a traitor to the ES and the Masters. Sounds very plausible, and 
> > >since ES members are not going to tell us who's on their s--tlist 
> > >and in what order, guesswork is all we have left.
> > >
> > >Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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