Theos-Talk Archives (January 2005 Message tt00205)

Dr. M. Scott Peck does a pretty good job at explaining what Love is 
not in his book the Road Less Traveled.


Dee

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> devalight11 <mharriss@m...> wrote:
> My guess is that it will be very difficult to get people on this 
list to define love. To define 
> is to limit, to draw a boundary line. Is love the sort of thing 
that can be defined? What 
> sort of mind or heart "understands" love?
> Mark
> 
> --- In J-Krishnamurti_andLife@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva 
<silva_cass@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Sandra
> >  
> > Sandra Soraya Alzona <strawb203@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: What is love? How are we defining that 
here?  
> > How are you loving right now, these days?  
> > 
> > CASS: BY LETTING GO OF MY PRECONCEIVED IDEAS ON "WHAT IS LOVE" 
> > AND 'WHAT IS RIGHT' AND 'WHAT I THINK IS BEST' FOR OTHERS.
> >    
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
---
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: Looks like it's about listening. Because 
before 
> > we can listen, we must put aside our preconceived ideas that can 
> > serve as a block.  
> > 
> > CASS: ABSOLUTELY, BUT MOST PEOPLE I KNOW, AND SOMETIMES MY SELF, 
DON'T 
> REALLY LISTEN, THEY ARE FORMULATING A RESPONSE BEFORE THE QUESTION 
IS EVEN 
> OUT. SO, I GUESS, I AM SAYING, IF YOU WANT TO REALLY LEARN 
SOMETHING ABOUT 
> SOMEONE YOU REALLY HAVE TO LISTEN TO THEM, AND IT DOESNT ALWAYS 
INVOLVE 
> YOUR EARS, IT CAN INVOLVE YOUR HEART.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
--- 
> > 
> > It feels like far too complex and heavy a label for me to 
carry, 
> > besides I am a women not a man. And spiritually, far to the 
contrary 
> > of many an esteemed writer: spirit beings can have sexual 
preference, 
> > although it is more about energy.
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
---
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: This has been written before, but I seem to 
be 
> > taking notice only at the moment. What do you mean by sexual 
> > preference? 
> > 
> > CASS; THESE AREN'T MY WORDS, I THOUGHT THEY WERE YOURS???
> > 
> > If you mean roles, then we would have to investigate 
> > further. The roles men and women play in society, you mean?  
Women 
> > from a matriarchal society would consider themselves as yin, but 
men 
> > from a patriarchal society would not say the same about these 
women.
> > Would you like to share your thoughts on how yin and yang, as 
energy, 
> > are supposed to behave in essence? Not even in the animal 
kingdom 
> > are yin and yang well-defined, and animal behavior as to the 
roles 
> > they play in raising children differ. And by what tool are we 
to 
> > measure this?  
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > CASS: I THINK THE ROLE PLAYING DAYS ARE OVER IN THE WEST. ALSO 
DONT KNOW 
> MUCH ABOUT YIN AND YANG, BUT I TEND TO THINK OF IT AS POSITIVE AND 
NEGATIVE 
> VIBRATIONAL PULLS. WE ARE VIBRATIONALLY ATTRACTED OR REPULSED BY 
OTHERS. IT'S 
> NOT A "LOVING OR HATRED THING" BUT MORE OUR + AND - ARE NOT IN 
ALIGNMENT. I 
> AM NOT SURE THAT I WOULD DEFINE WOMEN AS YIN AND MEN AS YANG. I 
THINK SOME 
> WOMEN ARE YANG AND SOME MEN ARE YIN. HOMOSEXUALS AND LESBIANS 
WOULD 
> PROBABLY BE ABLE TO OFFER SOME CONFIRMATION ON THIS.
> > 
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: We can't please everybody. Loving does not 
mean 
> > people-pleasing and being enslaved by their truth, but this 
should 
> > make us defensive about the idea of "others" and their concept 
of 
> > what is right.  
> > 
> > CASS: THAT IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY, I DONT KNOW ABOUT BEING 
DEFENSIVE 
> ABOUT THE IDEA OF OTHERS, RATHER I JUST LISTEN TO THE IDEAS, 
ACCEPT WHAT I FEEL 
> DRAWN TO AND TAKE FROM THEIR IDEA WHAT I CAN, IF I CAN'T TAKE 
ANYTHING FROM 
> THEIR IDEA OF WHAT IS RIGHT, I JUST SAY THAT "ITS RIGHT FOR 
THEM" "BUT NOT RIGHT 
> FOR ME". WHO CAN SAY WHO IS RIGHT, WHO IS WRONG? I SUPPOSE I DO 
NOT TAKE 
> OWNERSHIP OF TOO MANY IDEAS OF MY OWN OF WHAT IS RIGHT OR WHAT IS 
WRONG, I 
> TEND TO SAY WELL IT'S A DEFINITE MAYBE AND LEAVE IT AT THAT UNTIL 
IT RETURNS TO 
> ME IN SOME OTHER FORM, WHICH MAY CAUSE ME TO CHANGE MY 
MIND/IDEAS.  
> > 
> > E.G. HAVE JUST FOUND OUT THAT SOME OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE 
THEOSOPHICAL 
> SOCIETY, EG CWLEADBEATER, MASTURBATED YOUNG BOYS, AND THAT 
KRISHNAMURTI 
> SPENT A NUMBER OF YEARS SLEEPING ON A COUCH ON THIS MAN'S VERANDAH 
IN 
> ADYAR. OVER THE YEARS I HAD MY DOUBTS ABOUT HIM PURELY FROM A 
YIN/YANG 
> POINT OF VIEW, BUT NEVERTHELESS READ WHAT HE HAD TO SAY. I DIDNT 
TAKE IT AS 
> DIVINE TRUTH, SO WHEN I FOUND OUT THE ABOVE, I WAS SHOCKED BUT NOT 
UPSET 
> ABOUT "FOLLOWING SOMEONE WHO I THOUGHT WAS RIGHT, AND NOW I HAVE 
FOUND 
> OUT HE WAS WRONG, THEREFORE, I WAS WRONG IN MY ESTIMATION. I NOW 
TOTALLY 
> DISCREDIT HIM AND HIS TEACHINGS AS IMPOTENT FOR ME.
> > This is the reason Krishnamurti's ideas weren't 
> > popular, which posed a natural challenge. Anybody could've said 
it 
> > and it may get the same reaction. But what makes Krishnamurti 
> > different is his personal integrity.  
> > 
> > CASS; ON WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR CLAIM OF HIS PERSONAL INTEGRITY?
> > 
> > Whatever he said was natural to him and to an extent endured by 
him.  
> > I particularly like his attention to details, which are the same 
> > details I've been encountering and contemplating. It's not the 
first 
> > time I encountered the concept of love and compassion and 
freedom in 
> > spirituality.
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: It's personal is it not? The way he 
resonates 
> > and to what depth he does. But then again, I'm just speaking 
for 
> > myself and it's mainly due to my experiences of those who did 
not.  
> > If one can get into such details, then he must have an amount of 
> > integrity, whether or not he actually resonates with everyone.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
CASS: K'S 
> TEACHINGS WERE NOT PERSONAL FOR ME, IT WAS "A NEW WAY OF THINKING 
ABOUT 
> LIFE". IT IS VERY PRECISE, VERY LOGICAL, VERY CLEAR, AND BECAUSE 
HE IS 
> COMPASSIONATE (FULL OF PASSION) ABOUT IT,I SUPPOSE IT IS WHAT 
GIVES HIM AND HIS 
> METHODS INTEGRITY. IT IS VERY INTELLECTUALLY STIMULATING AND FOR 
THE 
> INTELLECT, I SUPPOSE, CAN GIVE MENTAL ORGASMS. A PART OF ME 
RESONATES WITH 
> WHAT HE SAYS, BUT ANOTHER PART, SEEKS THE MYSTICS PATH, THROUGH 
THE HEART.  
> BUT ALL PATHS ARE VALID.
> > 
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: Funny, your opinion. Looks like your 
concern is 
> > losing this prized possession, the sexual energy?
> > 
> > CASS: NO BUT I WISH MY PARTNER WOULD HA HA.
> > 
> > Haha! A very good indirect inquiry, though. It is important we 
asked these questions. 
> > 
> > CASS; THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO OTHER GROUP MEMBERS TANTRIC 
> > EXPERIENCE. TANTRA IS NOT ABOUT SEX, IT IS THE OPPOSITE, IT IS 
FREEDOM. WE 
> MUST BE IN CONTROL OF ALL OF OUR ENERGIES IN, PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL 
AND MENTAL 
> ASPECTS OF "BEING". THAT IS WHY GANDHI SLEPT WITH TWO NUBILE 
VIRGINS, NOT TO 
> HAVE THEM, BUT TO RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO HAVE THEM.
> > 
> > I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MANY PEOPLE IN THE WEST (OR EAST) FOR THAT 
MATTER, 
> REALLY UNDERSTAND THE PRACTICE OF TANTRA OR MEDITATION. ME 
INCLUDED. 
> HOWEVER, I HAVE READ SOMEWHERE THAT WHEN MEDITATING ON ANY OF THE 
LOWER 
> CHAKRAS (AND AS YOU KNOW THAT IS WHERE KUNDALINI LIES COILED)
(SEXUAL 
> HALLUCINATIONS, DEPRAVITY ETC), WE CAN OPEN OURSELVES TO THE LOWER 
ANIMAL 
> NATURE BY OPENING PSYCHIC LINKS WITH THE LOWER ASTRAL ETC.AND WE 
MAY TEAR 
> THE SHEATH THAT PROTECTS US ANDOPEN OURSELVES TO INSANITY OR 
WORSE, BLACK 
> MAGIC.
> > 
> > TO MOST PEOPLE IN THE WEST, TANTRA, IS WHAT STING DOES WITH HIS 
WIFE.  
> PROLONGED FOREPLAY.
> > 
> > To an extent, yes, it's transubstantiated, but it sounded more 
like transmutation to 
> me. You convert the energy that will be transmuted. It's just 
like chakra meditations.  
> You first purify or cleanse what used to be a self-indulgent 
physical pleasure, then you 
> transmute the converted as compassionate energy. 
> > CASS: Transubstantiated and transmutation are the same thing; 
changing one 
> substance into another. Let me first say that I am not a 
practising tantric. I was told 
> many years ago that raising Kundalini can not only be a euphoric 
state but can be a 
> dangerous one, and can certainly spin the chakras into psychism.  
That it is best left 
> alone until it awakens as a normal course of evolution or is 
raised when a discipline and 
> with the master's protection.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > CASS: WHAT IS COMPASSIONATE ENERGY? 
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: It's indiscriminate and free. It's the 
> > liberation of our own energy. Lower is sex, middle is love, 
higher is compassion, 
> highest is probably the expansion, radiation and intensification 
of compassion where all 
> chakra paths lead or are directed. I would rather not assign 
levels to these, but let's just 
> call them energy charges.  
> > 
> > 
> > CASS: Still cant get a hold on this, "liberation of our own 
energy". Is it a journey from 
> Love of Self to Love of All?
> > 
> > 
> > Losing the "I", indeed, then going beyond duality through the 
union phase.  
> > 
> > Sex is largely metaphorical in this practice, in fact it can be 
practiced alone. 
> > 
> > CASS: Does this mean self-love? That somehow, the physical 
aspect of arousal gets 
> changed into spirit matter?
> > 
> > But when engaged in a partnership, the ideal is that both 
parties are knowledgeable in 
> the whole process.
> > 
> > CASS: So is love of the other partner necessary? Or are they a 
means to an end?
> > 
> > CASS: WHY BECAUSE EJACULATION IS WITHHELD?
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: The point is not to withhold ejaculation, 
the point is to observe 
> the discipline through the ritual, which is lovemaking, to prolong 
the ritual. The ritual is 
> prolonged to be able to reach that compassion point, the 
buddhahood of the ritual.  
> > 
> > CASS; Still sounds like protracted foreplay to me if ejaculation 
occurs. I thought the 
> whole purpose was to transmute the sexual energy involved in 
ejaculation to the throat 
> or heart chakra?
> > So, do whatever it takes to prolong it. Haha! 
> > 
> > CASS; You try prolonging it and holding the ejaculation!!!
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > 
> > "In its technical sense the word Tantra means "continuum". In 
particular, Tantra refers 
> to one's own mind as non-dual Wisdom (jnana); it exists as a 
continuum because there is 
> an unbroken continuation of mind from beginningless time until 
the attainment of 
> Buddhahood. This continuum, moreover, has three aspects or 
stages; 
> > the causal continuum, the continuum involved in applied method, 
and the resultant 
> continuum."-Sakya Trizin 
> > 
> > CASS: THE CAUSE, THE ACTION, THE REACTION. CAUSE AND EFFECT.  
THIS 
> > NON-DUAL CONTINUUM IS OUR MOST SPIRITUAL SELF. THE ONE AND AT 
THE 
> > SAME TIME, THE ALL. SPIRIT IMPREGNATED WITH MATTER. MATTER 
PREGNANT 
> > WITH SPIRIT. I FAIL TO SEE HOW THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE 
> > SEXUAL ACT. IF YOU COULD PLEASE LIST THE SIGHT I WILL READ IT 
TO SEE 
> > HOW THE TWO CORRELATE.
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: The two and therefore the all. That's the 
point of tantric sex. It 
> doesn't stop at the lower chakras. Of course, the practice would 
engage the activation of 
> these, an investigation of these and a thorough understanding of 
what blocks. I did not 
> get these details from any internet site, and I would suggest a 
personal 
> > search. =)
> > CASS; In the words of St Augustine, make me a good boy, but not 
yet!
> > 
> > 
> > Krishnamurti himself describes meditation as a movement. When 
this movement is 
> stuck, we remain on the plane of what is self-serving or 
> > serves only a few. 
> > 
> > CASS; AND IF THIS MOVEMENT, MOVES DOWNWARD INSTEAD OF UPWARD, 
YOU MAY 
> > TRANSMUTE ALL THE BASE FEELINGS THAT WE ARE ATTEMPTING TO RISE 
ABOVE.
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: Some say there is a danger in not being able 
to 
> > do it right and can lead to a certain imbalance. However, the 
more 
> > we worry, the more it becomes dangerous. So the trick is not to 
> > worry about it, and enjoy even the downward movement. But then 
> > again, I'm not stricly traditional about this. So if you ask 
me, if 
> > the movement or awareness is going elsewhere but upward, then 
there 
> > must be a reason. Something down there of a physical nature 
awaits 
> > investigation. We must be aware that even the chakras are still 
> > physical and act only as a guide to what is not.  
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
CASS: The 
> chakras are not physical.
> > 
> > Hardly anybody thinks of Tantra as death, when there is such a 
thing 
> > as "Tantric Death", which is a quality of mindfulness, movement 
and 
> > thus it continues smoothly. If one is into smooth transitions, 
> > Tantra can be very helpful.
> > 
> > CASS; SORRY BUT I DONT UNDERSTAND THIS.
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > THOUGHTS, QUERIES: Tantra is not sex. It is a quality of 
movement, 
> > transformation or transcendence, hence a quality of 
mindfulness. You 
> > may live a tantric life and still not have actual sex with 
anybody.  
> > You may also die a tantric death. It does not, however, suggest 
a 
> > path of least resistance. It's just plain to see and simple for 
the 
> > one who practices it.
> > 
> > CASS: IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, TANTRA IS ANOTHER FORM OF CELIBACY 
OR 
> ASCETISM?
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> > 
> > I would like to understand more about Tantricism and also Left 
Hand Magic. Not 
> because I am interested in Black Magic, but I think unless we 
understand it, we can never 
> be safe from it.
> > 
> > As I said, I am mostly grabbing around in the dark here, excuse 
the pun, but enjoy 
> hearing of others experiences.
> > 
> > Cass
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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