Theos-Talk Archives (January 2005 Message tt00185)

devalight11 <mharriss@mac.com> wrote:
My guess is that it will be very difficult to get people on this list to define love. To define 
is to limit, to draw a boundary line. Is love the sort of thing that can bedefined? What 
sort of mind or heart "understands" love?
Mark

--- In J-Krishnamurti_andLife@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@y...>wrote:
> Hi Sandra
>  
> Sandra Soraya Alzona <strawb203@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: What is love? How are we defining that here?  
> How are you loving right now, these days?  
> 
> CASS: BY LETTING GO OF MY PRECONCEIVED IDEAS ON "WHAT IS LOVE" 
> AND 'WHAT IS RIGHT' AND 'WHAT I THINK IS BEST' FOR OTHERS.
>    
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: Looks like it's about listening. Because before 
> we can listen, we must put aside our preconceived ideas that can 
> serve as a block.  
> 
> CASS: ABSOLUTELY, BUT MOST PEOPLE I KNOW, AND SOMETIMES MY SELF, DON'T 
REALLY LISTEN, THEY ARE FORMULATING A RESPONSE BEFORE THE QUESTION IS EVEN 
OUT. SO, I GUESS, I AM SAYING, IF YOU WANT TO REALLY LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT 
SOMEONE YOU REALLY HAVE TO LISTEN TO THEM, AND IT DOESNT ALWAYS INVOLVE 
YOUR EARS, IT CAN INVOLVE YOUR HEART.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> It feels like far too complex and heavy a label for me to carry, 
> besides I am a women not a man. And spiritually, far to the contrary 
> of many an esteemed writer: spirit beings can have sexual preference, 
> although it is more about energy.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: This has been written before, but I seem to be 
> taking notice only at the moment. What do you mean by sexual 
> preference? 
> 
> CASS; THESE AREN'T MY WORDS, I THOUGHT THEY WERE YOURS???
> 
> If you mean roles, then we would have to investigate 
> further. The roles men and women play in society, you mean? Women 
> from a matriarchal society would consider themselves as yin, but men 
> from a patriarchal society would not say the same about these women.
> Would you like to share your thoughts on how yin and yang, as energy, 
> are supposed to behave in essence? Not even in the animal kingdom 
> are yin and yang well-defined, and animal behavior as to the roles 
> they play in raising children differ. And by what tool are we to 
> measure this?  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> CASS: I THINK THE ROLE PLAYING DAYS ARE OVER IN THE WEST. ALSO DONT KNOW 
MUCH ABOUT YIN AND YANG, BUT I TEND TO THINK OF IT AS POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE 
VIBRATIONAL PULLS. WE ARE VIBRATIONALLY ATTRACTED OR REPULSED BY OTHERS. IT'S 
NOT A "LOVING OR HATRED THING" BUT MORE OUR + AND - ARE NOT IN ALIGNMENT. I 
AM NOT SURE THAT I WOULD DEFINE WOMEN AS YIN AND MEN AS YANG. I THINK SOME 
WOMEN ARE YANG AND SOME MEN ARE YIN. HOMOSEXUALS AND LESBIANS WOULD 
PROBABLY BE ABLE TO OFFER SOME CONFIRMATION ON THIS.
> 
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: We can't please everybody. Loving does not mean 
> people-pleasing and being enslaved by their truth, but this should 
> make us defensive about the idea of "others" and their concept of 
> what is right.  
> 
> CASS: THAT IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY, I DONT KNOW ABOUT BEING DEFENSIVE 
ABOUT THE IDEA OF OTHERS, RATHER I JUST LISTEN TO THE IDEAS, ACCEPT WHAT I FEEL 
DRAWN TO AND TAKE FROM THEIR IDEA WHAT I CAN, IF I CAN'T TAKE ANYTHING FROM 
THEIR IDEA OF WHAT IS RIGHT, I JUST SAY THAT "ITS RIGHT FOR THEM" "BUT NOT RIGHT 
FOR ME". WHO CAN SAY WHO IS RIGHT, WHO IS WRONG? I SUPPOSE I DO NOT TAKE 
OWNERSHIP OF TOO MANY IDEAS OF MY OWN OF WHAT IS RIGHT OR WHAT IS WRONG, I 
TEND TO SAY WELL IT'S A DEFINITE MAYBE AND LEAVE IT AT THAT UNTIL IT RETURNS TO 
ME IN SOME OTHER FORM, WHICH MAY CAUSE ME TO CHANGE MY MIND/IDEAS.  
> 
> E.G. HAVE JUST FOUND OUT THAT SOME OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE THEOSOPHICAL 
SOCIETY, EG CWLEADBEATER, MASTURBATED YOUNG BOYS, AND THAT KRISHNAMURTI 
SPENT A NUMBER OF YEARS SLEEPING ON A COUCH ON THIS MAN'S VERANDAH IN 
ADYAR. OVER THE YEARS I HAD MY DOUBTS ABOUT HIM PURELY FROM A YIN/YANG 
POINT OF VIEW, BUT NEVERTHELESS READ WHAT HE HAD TO SAY. I DIDNT TAKE IT AS 
DIVINE TRUTH, SO WHEN I FOUND OUT THE ABOVE, I WAS SHOCKED BUT NOT UPSET 
ABOUT "FOLLOWING SOMEONE WHO I THOUGHT WAS RIGHT, AND NOW I HAVE FOUND 
OUT HE WAS WRONG, THEREFORE, I WAS WRONG IN MY ESTIMATION. I NOW TOTALLY 
DISCREDIT HIM AND HIS TEACHINGS AS IMPOTENT FOR ME.
> This is the reason Krishnamurti's ideas weren't 
> popular, which posed a natural challenge. Anybody could've said it 
> and it may get the same reaction. But what makes Krishnamurti 
> different is his personal integrity.  
> 
> CASS; ON WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR CLAIM OF HIS PERSONAL INTEGRITY?
> 
> Whatever he said was natural to him and to an extent endured by him.  
> I particularly like his attention to details, which are the same 
> details I've been encountering and contemplating. It's not the first 
> time I encountered the concept of love and compassion and freedom in 
> spirituality.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: It's personal is it not? The way he resonates 
> and to what depth he does. But then again, I'm just speaking for 
> myself and it's mainly due to my experiences of those who did not.  
> If one can get into such details, then he must have an amount of 
> integrity, whether or not he actually resonates with everyone.
> -------------------------------------------------------------CASS: K'S 
TEACHINGS WERE NOT PERSONAL FOR ME, IT WAS "A NEW WAY OF THINKING ABOUT 
LIFE". IT IS VERY PRECISE, VERY LOGICAL, VERY CLEAR, AND BECAUSE HE IS 
COMPASSIONATE (FULL OF PASSION) ABOUT IT,I SUPPOSE IT IS WHAT GIVES HIM ANDHIS 
METHODS INTEGRITY. IT IS VERY INTELLECTUALLY STIMULATING AND FOR THE 
INTELLECT, I SUPPOSE, CAN GIVE MENTAL ORGASMS. A PART OF ME RESONATES WITH 
WHAT HE SAYS, BUT ANOTHER PART, SEEKS THE MYSTICS PATH, THROUGH THE HEART.  
BUT ALL PATHS ARE VALID.
> 
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: Funny, your opinion. Looks like your concern is 
> losing this prized possession, the sexual energy?
> 
> CASS: NO BUT I WISH MY PARTNER WOULD HA HA.
> 
> Haha! A very good indirect inquiry, though. It is important we asked these questions. 
> 
> CASS; THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO OTHER GROUP MEMBERS TANTRIC 
> EXPERIENCE. TANTRA IS NOT ABOUT SEX, IT IS THE OPPOSITE, IT IS FREEDOM. WE 
MUST BE IN CONTROL OF ALL OF OUR ENERGIES IN, PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL AND MENTAL 
ASPECTS OF "BEING". THAT IS WHY GANDHI SLEPT WITH TWO NUBILE VIRGINS, NOT TO 
HAVE THEM, BUT TO RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO HAVE THEM.
> 
> I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MANY PEOPLE IN THE WEST (OR EAST) FOR THAT MATTER, 
REALLY UNDERSTAND THE PRACTICE OF TANTRA OR MEDITATION. ME INCLUDED. 
HOWEVER, I HAVE READ SOMEWHERE THAT WHEN MEDITATING ON ANY OF THE LOWER 
CHAKRAS (AND AS YOU KNOW THAT IS WHERE KUNDALINI LIES COILED)(SEXUAL 
HALLUCINATIONS, DEPRAVITY ETC), WE CAN OPEN OURSELVES TO THE LOWER ANIMAL 
NATURE BY OPENING PSYCHIC LINKS WITH THE LOWER ASTRAL ETC.AND WE MAY TEAR 
THE SHEATH THAT PROTECTS US ANDOPEN OURSELVES TO INSANITY OR WORSE, BLACK 
MAGIC.
> 
> TO MOST PEOPLE IN THE WEST, TANTRA, IS WHAT STING DOES WITH HIS WIFE.  
PROLONGED FOREPLAY.
> 
> To an extent, yes, it's transubstantiated, but it sounded more like transmutation to 
me. You convert the energy that will be transmuted. It's just like chakrameditations.  
You first purify or cleanse what used to be a self-indulgent physical pleasure, then you 
transmute the converted as compassionate energy. 
> CASS: Transubstantiated and transmutation are the same thing; changing one 
substance into another. Let me first say that I am not a practising tantric. I was told 
many years ago that raising Kundalini can not only be a euphoric state but can be a 
dangerous one, and can certainly spin the chakras into psychism. That it is best left 
alone until it awakens as a normal course of evolution or is raised when a discipline and 
with the master's protection.
> 
>  
> 
> CASS: WHAT IS COMPASSIONATE ENERGY? 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: It's indiscriminate and free. It's the 
> liberation of our own energy. Lower is sex, middle is love, higher is compassion, 
highest is probably the expansion, radiation and intensification of compassion where all 
chakra paths lead or are directed. I would rather not assign levels to these, but let's just 
call them energy charges.  
> 
> 
> CASS: Still cant get a hold on this, "liberation of our own energy". Is it a journey from 
Love of Self to Love of All?
> 
> 
> Losing the "I", indeed, then going beyond duality through the union phase.  
> 
> Sex is largely metaphorical in this practice, in fact it can be practicedalone. 
> 
> CASS: Does this mean self-love? That somehow, the physical aspect of arousal gets 
changed into spirit matter?
> 
> But when engaged in a partnership, the ideal is that both parties are knowledgeable in 
the whole process.
> 
> CASS: So is love of the other partner necessary? Or are they a means to an end?
> 
> CASS: WHY BECAUSE EJACULATION IS WITHHELD?
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: The point is not to withhold ejaculation, the point is to observe 
the discipline through the ritual, which is lovemaking, to prolong the ritual. The ritual is 
prolonged to be able to reach that compassion point, the buddhahood of the ritual.  
> 
> CASS; Still sounds like protracted foreplay to me if ejaculation occurs. I thought the 
whole purpose was to transmute the sexual energy involved in ejaculation tothe throat 
or heart chakra?
> So, do whatever it takes to prolong it. Haha! 
> 
> CASS; You try prolonging it and holding the ejaculation!!!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> "In its technical sense the word Tantra means "continuum". In particular, Tantra refers 
to one's own mind as non-dual Wisdom (jnana); it exists as a continuum because there is 
an unbroken continuation of mind from beginningless time until the attainment of 
Buddhahood. This continuum, moreover, has three aspects or stages; 
> the causal continuum, the continuum involved in applied method, and the resultant 
continuum."-Sakya Trizin 
> 
> CASS: THE CAUSE, THE ACTION, THE REACTION. CAUSE AND EFFECT. THIS 
> NON-DUAL CONTINUUM IS OUR MOST SPIRITUAL SELF. THE ONE AND AT THE 
> SAME TIME, THE ALL. SPIRIT IMPREGNATED WITH MATTER. MATTER PREGNANT 
> WITH SPIRIT. I FAIL TO SEE HOW THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE 
> SEXUAL ACT. IF YOU COULD PLEASE LIST THE SIGHT I WILL READ IT TO SEE 
> HOW THE TWO CORRELATE.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: The two and therefore the all. That's the point of tantric sex. It 
doesn't stop at the lower chakras. Of course, the practice would engage the activation of 
these, an investigation of these and a thorough understanding of what blocks. I did not 
get these details from any internet site, and I would suggest a personal 
> search. =)
> CASS; In the words of St Augustine, make me a good boy, but not yet!
> 
> 
> Krishnamurti himself describes meditation as a movement. When this movement is 
stuck, we remain on the plane of what is self-serving or 
> serves only a few. 
> 
> CASS; AND IF THIS MOVEMENT, MOVES DOWNWARD INSTEAD OF UPWARD, YOU MAY 
> TRANSMUTE ALL THE BASE FEELINGS THAT WE ARE ATTEMPTING TO RISE ABOVE.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: Some say there is a danger in not being able to 
> do it right and can lead to a certain imbalance. However, the more 
> we worry, the more it becomes dangerous. So the trick is not to 
> worry about it, and enjoy even the downward movement. But then 
> again, I'm not stricly traditional about this. So if you ask me, if 
> the movement or awareness is going elsewhere but upward, then there 
> must be a reason. Something down there of a physical nature awaits 
> investigation. We must be aware that even the chakras are still 
> physical and act only as a guide to what is not.  
> -------------------------------------------------------------CASS: The 
chakras are not physical.
> 
> Hardly anybody thinks of Tantra as death, when there is such a thing 
> as "Tantric Death", which is a quality of mindfulness, movement and 
> thus it continues smoothly. If one is into smooth transitions, 
> Tantra can be very helpful.
> 
> CASS; SORRY BUT I DONT UNDERSTAND THIS.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> THOUGHTS, QUERIES: Tantra is not sex. It is a quality of movement, 
> transformation or transcendence, hence a quality of mindfulness. You 
> may live a tantric life and still not have actual sex with anybody.  
> You may also die a tantric death. It does not, however, suggest a 
> path of least resistance. It's just plain to see and simple for the 
> one who practices it.
> 
> CASS: IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, TANTRA IS ANOTHER FORM OF CELIBACY OR 
ASCETISM?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I would like to understand more about Tantricism and also Left Hand Magic. Not 
because I am interested in Black Magic, but I think unless we understand it, we can never 
be safe from it.
> 
> As I said, I am mostly grabbing around in the dark here, excuse the pun, but enjoy 
hearing of others experiences.
> 
> Cass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> Children InternationalGive a Child the gift of Hope this Holiday season ·Click Here to 
meet a Boy
> And Change His Life·Click Here to meet a Girl
> And Give Her Hope Learn More
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/J-Krishnamurti_andLife/
>   
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> J-Krishnamurti_andLife-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/J-Krishnamurti_andLife/
  
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
J-Krishnamurti_andLife-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]