Theos-Talk Archives (January 2005 Message tt00098)

Dear Paul
 
My opinion is, if you have an agenda, let's hear it. Reading between yourlines it appeared to me that you were hoping that with the internet, more honest and frank discussions could take place regarding philosophical ideasand their authors, (up to this point you had me) but your hope had been crushed with the mundane and dogmatic dialogue (this is where you lost me) that you see, as taking place. And as a participant of the mundane and dogmatic I responded. If my tone comes across as confrontational it is because I like to get to the real core of things, rather than white-washing around the periphery. I am blunt, and to the point, I like to deal with truthand honesty, no matter if the truth hurts. I am not flowery, but I like tothink that I do have a good sense of humour, and never take anything too personally or feel the need for revenge or to prove my point. I can be justas wrong as anyone else.
 
Regarding your questions, 
HPB reiterated what others have said in the past regarding man and the universe. What they all say has a common thread of logic, hence realability,intheir teachings. Although we are asked to wait for our Higher Self to be in control for actual proof, until then, it stands as a better alternative to Darwinism, Athiesm, or Christianity, for my way of thinking.
 
If you go to this website you will find the article by a family member ofHPB claiming that she was a prankster. I do not validate his claim for the above reason, i.e. She reiterated ancient teachings of Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, etc etc, and I believe he has an agenda.
http://www.parascience.org/suborn.htm
 
I have not discovered the dirt on Gurdgieff yet, all I know of him is that he said, men were automatons and needed to wake up. Dead men walking in other words.
 
I don't know about Krishnamurti, although his teachings suggest that we "remember to forget" everything, and see each new day as a new experience and not as a continuum of past to present. It certainly would have been a sound reason not to take on the role of World Teacher though, and a reason for his split with the TS.
 
If all accounts of Annie Besant are true, I cannot accept her behaviour, asshe is no better than the wife/husband who sacrifice her/his children to perversion rather than fearing the loss of their environment, or in the worst cases, his/her love for the other person. PHooeeee. From all accounts Annie Besant knew of Leadbeater's masturbation of the young boys (the swine even couched it in sound theosophical principles to justify his disgusting behaviour) as her first reaction was of disapproval and then she recanted??
 
I believe that HPB may have been under certain constraints in that she was only able to provide half-truths on some subjects. If something is secret,it would have been better to remain such, as half-truth always leaves roomfor half-lies. Actually neither exist, its either the truth or its a lie,there are no half measures. I don't know what her reasoning or what her constraints were, but it appears as though someone didnt think through things clearly enough. Although, as my old uncle would say, you can't judge a situation without taking into consideration the period and events from which it came. To look back in hindsight is far easier than to project into farsight. Although I am still baffled how the Masters couldn't see what was going to happen?
 
I don't know what this means. 
"Those three are on a different plane than self-aggrandizing deliberate schemers like others you mention. IMO, YMMV!"
 
Cass

 

kpauljohnson <kpauljohnson@yahoo.com> wrote:


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote:
> Dear Perry
> In this instance, truth searched me out, I didnt go looking for it. My search for truth has led me to take the blindfold off and look at truth as "definite maybe's"
> Cass
> 
Dear Cass,

Of course I am not out to get you over any opinion, and am not even clear on what your opinions are. Your interrogation about my "agenda" and "point" came across as confrontational and unfriendly and echoes past experiences here.

But now in light of your other postings and evident cognitive dissonance I would like to make a supportive comment. As for the trickster issue, indeedHPB is in good company-- Gurdjieff being a more recent example. I suggest that there are different ethical issues involved in the untruths and dishonesty practiced by various figures in Theosophical history. For example:

Was K. lying when he denied all conscious memory of his early life, or was he so traumatized by early and ongoing abuse that he had indeed split off those memories?

Was HPB lying and telling the truth at the same time, through a mixture of messages and metamessages, because bound to secrecy?

Was Besant more a victim of deception, or an accomplice to it?

Those three are on a different plane than self-aggrandizing deliberate schemers like others you mention. IMO, YMMV!

Cheers,

Paul 

> 
> Perry Coles 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Cass, perhaps these type of issues are good examples of when we
> need to let our search for truth take us where it will and continue
> anyway.
> 
> I think these issues help to hone our antenna and keep us on our toes.
> If HPB CWL AB WQJ GDeP……. are all found to be flawed in some way to a
> greater or lesser degrees should that stoped our search.
> 
> Perhaps its just a reminder that they/we are all very human.
> 
> Perry
> 
> "This night brings darkness to the spirit although it does so in order
> to illumine and enlighten it" 
> 
> St John of the Cross
> 
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote:
> > I have been digging in the garden of Gethsemane and have discovered
> that C.W.Leadbeater was a pervert, Annie Besant condoned his actions
> for the sake of "the cause," Krishnamurti spent a number of years on
> the verandah outside Leadbeaters cottage in Adyar, Judge is a forger,
> HPB is a prankster and her masters are in fact the Russian/ Sufi group
> "illumaniti" of which she was connected by family and political
> beliefs. That their mission was for political and religious reform in
> the World.
> > 
> > After much gnashing of teeth and flaying of the body, I came to the
> conclusion that if HPB is a prankster, then she shares her joke with 
> Krishna, Lao-Tse, Buddha, Confucius, Zoroaster, Shankaracharya,
> Tirthankaras, Jesus, Pythogoras, Socrates, Plato, Nietzsche,
> Wittgenstein, etc etc.
> > 
> > As far as Leadbeater is concerned if he was impotent, so were his
> teachings.
> > If Annie Besant condoned his actions she was a coward and a fraud.
> > If Judge fabricated lies he is a liar.
> > No wonder the Masters severed all ties - russian or otherwise
> > 
> > For those out there, who may know the answer, why did the Masters
> choose these people to form a teaching of "No Religion higher than
> truth". In the letters it is said that they cannot read any pupil's
> thoughts for karmic reasons, but surely, for something as crucial as
> an attempt to help us poor souls in Kali Yuga, the auras of those
> founders must have been knowledgeable to a Master?
> > 
> > What is there left? The esoteric teachings of Bart Simpson? Yes I
> am angry and disallusioned by it all, and will be joining "Chuck the
> Heretics" group if I can't find a logical explanation to this Kaka (or
> doo doos as Chuck says)
> > 
> > Cass
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------
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