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RE: [bn-study] Re: Chapter 2 page 13 from Deity, Cosmos and Man

Oct 17, 2004 04:25 PM
by W.Dallas TenBroeck


Oct 17 2004

Dear R.:

Here are some more definitions that THEOSOPHY offers for consideration.
Hope that they prove of some help.

----------------------------------


C O N S C I O U S N E S S 

---------------------            

"Whatever plane our consciousness may be acting in, both we and the things
belonging to that plane are, for the time being, our only realities. As we
rise in the scale of development we perceive that during the stages through
which we have passed we mistook shadows for realities, and the upward
progress of the Ego is a series of progressive awakenings, each advance
bringing with it the idea that now, at last, we have reached "reality;" but
only when we shall have reached to the absolute Consciousness, and blended
our own with it, shall we be free from the delusions produced by Maya."
S D I 40
[ see also: SD I 37-9 172 329 268 329fn GN 98-100' Trans 31 Pat 39-41



SOME PRELIMINARY OBSERVATIONS:  


1.	The Universe is embodied consciousness. For awareness
(consciousness) there has to be an Observer, who, by definition remains
uninvolved, unmoved and is therefore able to see and record all changes. [
see: "Proofs of the Hidden Self." WQJ Articles, I, p. 289 ]

"To the stone belongs molecular consciousness, not consciousness as we know
it, but only so called by analogy; to the plant belongs astral
consciousness, or the dawn of sensation; to the animal belongs emotional
consciousness, or the dawn of perception. As this faculty or principle
becomes more and more fully developed and active, a new faculty begins to
act--the human intellect, the lower manas, begins to awake and exercise its
functions. The [ individual ]...has evolved far enough towards spiritual
perception, to be able to recognize his lower principles as himself -
...This is self-consciousness or consciousness of self; and here the human
stage is reached in the return of the monad from its journey to the confines
of matter."
WQJ Articles I p. 303-4


"Spirit is universal, indivisible, and common to all...there are not many
spirits, one for each man, but solely one spirit, which shines upon all men
alike, finding as many souls--roughly speaking--as there are beings in the
world. In man the spirit has a more complete instrument or assemblage of
tools with which to work. This spiritual identity is the basis of the
philosophy; upon it the whole structure rests..."	Echoes, p.
50

 

2.	Second, there has to be one or more fields of action.  
[ See: "Three Planes of Human Life," WQJ Articles, I p. 294;
"The Sevenfold Division," WQJ Articles, I p. 298;  
Ocean, p. 23-24, 26; ]


3.	Third, there has to be interaction, movement, a purpose, or cause,
and a being which benefits from such changes by increments. [ see:
"Remembering the Experiences of the Ego," WQJ Articles, I p.
292 ]


Some experiences are called subjective and others, objective. But if we
scrutinize the process we find that even the objective events that can be
recorded as memory are all handled by the subjective Ego, and recorded by
its process of concentrated attention, or will. [ see: "The Subjective and
the Objective," WQJ Articles, I p. 300 ; also "The Self is the Friend of
Self, and also its Enemy," WQJ Art. I p. 307; "Meditation, Concentration,
Will," WQJ Art. I p. 316, and 319 - gives an idea of these processes, when
voluntarily applied. They are powers of the embodied Self. ]

The Theosophical vocabulary and nomenclature has been developed to assist
students who derive their considerations from either the Western or the
Eastern systems. The latter have been in place for millennia and by
observations and experiment the Eastern schools have classified many states
of consciousness and hence, Theosophy employs many of their ideas and their
technical vocabulary as the equivalents in Western psychology are yet to be
developed.

This presentation will consist of a number of a seemingly disjointed
quotations, and it may require reference to a coherent presentation of the
Theosophical philosophy as is done by Mme. Blavatsky in her THE KEY TO
THEOSOPHY or Mr. Judge's THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY to acquire the usage of that
system of terms and ideas.


"Our consciousness is one and not many, nor different from other
consciousnesses. It is not waking consciousness or sleeping consciousness,
or any other but consciousness itself. But the One Consciousness of each
person is the Witness or Spectator of the actions and experiences of every
state we are in or pass through...[It] pierces up and down through all the
states or planes of Being, and serves to uphold the memory--whether complete
or incomplete--of each state's experiences." 		
[ quoted in W.Q.Judge -- Gita Notes, p. 99 ]  


In the EPITOME, Mr. Judge states:

"...[ considering ] the doctrine of Universal Evolution...	
the mineral, vegetable and animal forms each imprison a spark of the Divine,
a portion of the indivisible Purusha [ Spirit ]. These sparks struggle to
"return to the Father," or in other words to secure self-consciousness and
at last come into the highest form, on Earth, that of man, where alone
self-consciousness is possible to them...

Each spark of divinity has...millions of ages in which to accomplish
its mission--that of obtaining complete self-consciousness while in the form
of man...all depends on the individual's own will and efforts...

This system is thus seen to be based upon the identity of Spiritual
Being, and, under the name of "Universal Brotherhood," constitutes the basic
idea...Purusha [Spirit] is the basis of all manifested objects...It
interpenetrates everything everywhere. It is the reality of which, or upon
which, those things called real by us are mere images.

As Purusha reaches to and embraces all beings, they are all
connected together; and in or on the plane where that Purusha is, there is
a perfect consciousness of every act, thought, object, and circumstance,
whether supposed to occur there, or on this plane, or any other. For below
the spirit and above the intellect is a plane of consciousness in which
experiences are noted, commonly called man's "spiritual nature;" this is
frequently said to be as susceptible of culture as his body or his
intellect. (see 25)

This upper plane is the real recorder of all sensations and
experiences, although there are other registering planes. it is sometimes
called the "subconscious mind."...The real object to be kept in view is to
so open up or make porous the lower nature that the spiritual nature may
shine through it and become the guide and ruler....

The real man, who is the Higher Self--being the spark of the Divine
before alluded to--overshadows the visible being, which has the possibility
of becoming united to that spark...it is always peaceful, unconcerned,
blissful, and full of absolute knowledge. It continually partakes of the
Divine state, being continually that state itself...The object of the
student is to let the light of that spirit shine through the lower
coverings."	WQJ--Epitome, pp.11-14


he quotations that follow offer reinforcement to an understanding of these
fundamental ideas, which are also described in their operations.



CONSCIOUSNESS AND LIFE


"Esoteric philosophy teaches that everything lives and is conscious, but not
that all life and consciousness are similar to those of human or even animal
beings. Life we look upon as "the one form of existence," manifesting in
what is called matter; or, as in man, incorrectly separating them, we name
Spirit, Soul and Matter. Matter is the vehicle for the manifestation of
soul on this plane of existence, and soul is the vehicle on a higher plane
for the manifestation of spirit, and these three are a trinity synthesized
by Life, which pervades them all. The idea of universal life is one of
those ancient conceptions which are returning to the human mind in this
century as a consequence of its liberation from anthropomorphic theology."

S D I 49


"The Secret Doctrine teaches the progressive development of everything,
worlds as well as atoms; and this stupendous development has neither
conceivable beginning nor imaginable end. Our "Universe" is only one of an
infinite series of Universes, all of them "Sons of Necessity," because links
in the great Cosmic chain of Universes, each one standing in the relation of
an effect as regards its predecessor, and being a cause as regards its
successor.

The appearance and disappearance of the Universe are pictured as an
outbreathing and inbreathing of "the Great Breath," which is eternal, and
which, being Motion, is one of the three aspects of the Absolute--Abstract
Space and Duration being the other two..."The Past time is the Present time,
as also the Future, which, though it has not come into existence, still
is..."	SD I 43



UNIVERSAL MIND -- UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS


"The true student of Raja Yoga knows that everything has its origin in the
mind; that even this universe is the passing before the Divine Mind of the
images he desires to appear."	WQJ ART II 560


"At the commencement of a great Manvantara [ great cycle of evolution ],
Parabrahm [ the ABSOLUTE ] manifests as Mulaprakriti [ root-matter ] and
then as the Logos ["Word"-thought-plan ]. This Logos is equivalent to the
"Unconscious Universal Mind," etc., of Western Pantheists. It constitutes
the Basis of the Subject-side of manifested Being, and is the source of all
manifestations of individual consciousness.

Mulaprakriti or Primordial Cosmic Substance, is the foundation of the
Object-side of things--the basis of all objective evolution and
Cosmogenesis.

Force, then, does not emerge with Primordial Substance from Parabrahmic
Latency. It is the transformation into energy of the supra-conscious
thought of the Logos, infused, so to speak, into the objectivization of the
latter out of potential latency in the One Reality.  

Hence spring the wondrous laws of matter...Force succeeds Mulaprakriti;
but, minus Force, Mulaprakriti is for all practical intents and purposes
non-existent."	SD II 24-5	
(see also M L 89-91)


"...spiritual discernment, by means of which the Supreme Spirit can be
discerned in all things...To attain it, the heart--that is, every part of
the nature--must be fixed on the Spirit, meditation has to be constant, and
the Spirit made the refuge or abiding-place...No particular theosophical
classification for the divisions of nature has been given out... "inferior
nature" [ to Krishna ] is only so, relatively. It is the phenomenal and
transient which disappears into the superior at the end of a kalpa.  


It is that part of God, or of the Self, which chose to assume the phenomenal
and transient position, but is, in essence, as great as the superior nature.
The inferiority is only relative; as soon as objective material, and
subjective spiritual, worlds appear, the first-named has to be denominated
inferior to the other, because the spiritual being the permanent base, it is
in that sense superior; but in an absolute whole all is equal.

[ Note: One could say that Manvantara-manifestation is characterized by the
Sanskrit term Kamadeva -- that deity the represents in time and space the
reign of those forces peculiar to all beings which reflect the desire-kama,
and the passionate aspect of each. Those being which are self-conscious
have in this time the opportunity of seeing their own kamic nature as an
aspect of the Universal, Eternal Man, of themselves. To perceive this
desire-nature implies the fat that the Real man is separate from the mass of
his desires, can know them in detail, and can modify or adjust them. see
Light on the Path, essay on Karma ]


Included in the inferior nature are all the visible, tangible, invisible and
intangible worlds; it is what we call Nature. The invisible and intangible
are none the less actual..." Gita Notes 133


[ In the Secret Doctrine, HPB gives several 7-fold classifications we could
consider as "keys" to the 7-fold divisions of Nature, but there, she also
states that we ought to consider the particular starting-point from which
those are used. Example:

"The seven fundamental transformations of the globes or heavenly spheres, or
rather their constituent particles of matter, is described as follows: 1)
the homogeneous; 2) the aeriform and radiant (gaseous); 3) Curd-like
(nebulous); 4) Atomic, Ethereal (beginning of motion, hence of
differentiation); 5) Germinal, fiery, (differentiated, but composed of the
germs only of the Elements, in their earliest states, they having seven
states, when completely developed on our earth); 6) Four-fold, vapory (the
future Earth); 7) Cold and depending (on the Sun for life and light)."
S D, I 205-6 fn.

[ On the 7 Planets of our Solar System. S D, I, 575 & 577 ]


"...the Rishis, were the septiform personations 1) of the noumena of the
intelligent Powers of nature; 2) of Cosmic Forces; 3) of celestial bodies;
4) of gods or Dhyan Chohans; 5) of psychic and spiritual powers; 6) of
divine kings on earth (or the incarnations of the gods); and 7) of
terrestrial heroes or men. The knowledge of how to discern among these
seven forms the one that is meant, belonged at all times to the
Initiates..."	S D, II 765  
 


"Esoteric philosophy teaches that everything lives and is conscious, but not
that all life and consciousness are similar to those of human or even animal
beings. Life we look upon as "the one form of existence," manifesting in
what is called matter; or, as in man, incorrectly separating them, we name
Spirit, Soul and Matter. Matter is the vehicle for the manifestation of
soul on this plane of existence, and soul is the vehicle on a higher plane
for the manifestation of spirit, and these three are a trinity synthesized
by Life, which pervades them all. The idea of universal life is one of
those ancient conceptions which are returning to the human mind in this
century as a consequence of its liberation from anthropomorphic theology."
S D I 49


"This desire for a sentient life shows itself in everything, from an atom to
a sun, and is a reflection of the Divine Thought propelled into objective
existence, into a law that the Universe should exist...the real cause of
that supposed desire, and of all existence, remains for ever hidden, and its
first emanations are the most complete abstractions mind can conceive.
[which]... must of necessity be postulated as the cause of the material
Universe which presents itself to the senses and intellect...It is
impossible to conceive of anything without a cause...metaphysical
abstractions...are the only conceivable cause of physical concretions."
S D I 44-5


"...Motion, the one life, or Jivatma..."	S D I 50


"The matter-moving Nous, the animating Soul, immanent in every atom,
manifested in man, latent in the stone, has different degrees of power; and
this pantheistic idea of a general spirit-Soul pervading all Nature is the
oldest of all the philosophical notions."	S D I 51	


"...Occultism, unlike modern Science, maintains that every atom of
matter, when once differentiated, becomes endowed with its own kind of
Consciousness. Every cell in the human body (as in every animal) is endowed
with its own peculiar discrimination, instinct, and, speaking relatively,
with intelligence."	
(see HPB Art. II, 20-2)	TRANS 25


 
CONSCIOUSNESS - FREE-WILL


"Every atom is endowed with and moved by intelligence, and is conscious in
its own degree, on its own plane of development. This is a glimpse of the
One Life...selfishness is the curse of I-ness..."
WQJ ART I 29


"...Time...[is] the panoramic succession of our states of consciousness..."
S D I 44


"The "Absolute Consciousness,"..."behind" phenomena...is only termed
unconsciousness in the absence of any element of personality...transcends
human conception...Only the liberated Spirit is able to faintly realize the
nature of the source whence it sprung and whither it must eventually
return...we can but bow in ignorance before the awful mystery of Absolute
Being...the Finite cannot conceive the Infinite..."	S D
I 51


"Every man has a god within, a direct ray from the Absolute, the celestial
ray from the One..."	TRANS 53


"Free-will can only exist in a man who has both mind and consciousness,
which act and make him perceive things both within and without himself."

"Consciousness is a condition of the monad as a result of embodiment in
matter and the dwelling in a physical form."	WQJ ART I 29


"Esoteric philosophy teaches that everything lives and is conscious, but not
that all life and consciousness are similar to those of human or even animal
beings. Life we look on as the "the one form of existence," manifesting in
what is called matter; or, as in man, what, incorrectly separating them we
name Spirit, Soul and Matter. Matter is the vehicle for the manifestation
or soul on this plane of existence, and soul is the vehicle on a higher
plane for the manifestation of spirit, and those three are a trinity
synthesized by Life, which pervades them all."	SD I 49

	 

MIND -- ILLUSION -- TIME -- EVOLUTION


"Mind is a name given to the sum of the states of Consciousness grouped
under Thought, Will, and Feeling. During deep sleep, ideation ceases of the
physical plane, and memory is in abeyance; thus for the time-being "Mind is
not," because the organ through which the Ego manifests ideation and memory
on the material plane has temporarily ceased to function. A noumenon can
become a phenomenon on any plane of existence only by manifesting on that
plane through an appropriate basis or vehicle...The Ah-hi (Dhyan-Chohans)
are the collective hosts of spiritual beings--the Angelic Hosts of
Christianity...--who are the vehicle for the manifestation of the divine or
universal though and will. They are the Intelligent Forces that give to and
enact in Nature her "laws," while themselves acting according to laws
imposed upon them in a similar manner by still higher Powers...This
hierarchy of spiritual Beings, through which the Universal Mind comes into
action, is like an army--a "Host,"	SD I 38  	


"Maya or illusion is an element which enters into all finite things, for
everything that exists has only a relative, not an absolute, reality, since
the appearance which the hidden noumenon assumes for any observer depends
upon his power of cognition...	

Nothing is permanent except the one hidden absolute existence which contains
in itself the noumena of all realities. The existence belonging to every
plane of being up to the highest Dhyan Chohans, are, in degree, of the
nature of shadows...but all things are relatively real, for the cognizer is
also a reflection, and the things cognized are therefore as real to him as
himself. What ever reality things possess must be looked for it them before
or after they have passed like a flash through the material world; but we
cannot cognize any such existence directly, so long as we have sense
instruments which bring only material existence into the field of our
consciousness. Whatever plane our consciousness may be acting in, both we
and the things belonging to that plane are, for the time being, our only
realities. As we rise in the scale of development we perceive that during
the stages through which we have passed we mistook shadows for realities,
and the upward march of the Ego is a series of progressive awakenings, each
advance bringing with it the idea that now, at last, we have reached
"reality;" but only when we shall have reached the absolute Consciousness,
and blended our own with it, shall we be free from the delusions produced by
Maya."	SD I 39-40
[ see also Echoes, p. 41-2 ]

 


UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION


"The Secret Doctrine teaches the progressive development of everything,
worlds as well as atoms; and this stupendous development has neither
conceivable beginning nor imaginable end. Our "Universe" is only one of an
infinite series of Universes, all of them "Sons of Necessity," because links
in the great Cosmic chain of Universes, each one standing in the relation of
an effect as regards its predecessor, and being a cause as regards its
successor.

The appearance and disappearance of the Universe are pictured as an
outbreathing and inbreathing of "the Great Breath," which is eternal, and
which, being Motion, is one of the three aspects of the Absolute--Abstract
Space and Duration being the other two..."The Past time is the Present time,
as also the Future, which, though it has not come into existence, still
is..."	SD I 43
 

"Every living creature, of whatever description, was, is, or will become a
human being in one or another Manvantara."  
HPB-- Trans. 23


"Esoteric philosophy teaches that everything lives and is conscious, but not
that all life and consciousness are similar to those of human or even animal
beings. Life we look upon as "the one form of existence," manifesting in
what is called matter; or, as in man, incorrectly separating them, we name
Spirit, Soul and Matter. Matter is the vehicle for the manifestation of
soul on this plane of existence, and soul is the vehicle on a higher plane
for the manifestation of spirit, and these three are a trinity synthesized
by Life, which pervades them all. The idea of universal life is one of
those ancient conceptions which are returning to the human mind in this
century as a consequence of its liberation from anthropomorphic theology."

S D I 49



THE BRAIN


"We might properly speak, then, of the memory of the end-organ of vision or
of hearing, of the memory of the spinal cord and of the different so-called
'centers' of reflex action belonging to the chords of the memory of the
medulla oblongata, the cerebellum, etc." This is the essence of Occult
teaching...every organ in our body has its own memory. For it is endowed
with a consciousness "of its own kind," every cell must of necessity have
also a memory of its own kind, as likewise its own psychic and noetic
action. Responding to the touch of both a physical and a metaphysical
Force, the impulse given by the psychic (or psycho-molecular) Force will act
from without within; while that of the noetic (shall we call it
Spiritual-dynamical ?) Force works from within without. For, as our body is
the covering of the inner "principles," soul, mind, life, etc., so the
molecule or the cell is the body in which dwell its principles," the (to our
senses and comprehension) immaterial atoms which compose that cell. The
cell's activity and behavior are determined by its being propelled either
inwardly or outwardly, by the noetic or the psychic Force, the former having
no relation to the physical cells proper. Therefore while the latter act
under the unavoidable law of the conservation and correlation of physical
energy, the atoms--being psycho-spiritual, not physical units--act under
laws of their own, just as Professor Ladd's "Unit-Being," which is our
"Mind-Ego," does, in his very philosophical and scientific hypothesis.
 

Every human organ and each cell in the latter has a keyboard of its own,
like that of a piano, only that it registers and emits sensations instead of
sounds. Every key contains the potentiality of good or bad, of producing
harmony or disharmony. This depends on the impulse given and the
combination produced; on the force of the touch of the artist at work, a
"double-faced Unity," indeed...For the whole of man is guided by this
double-faced Entity. If the impulse comes from the "Wisdom above," the
Force applied being noetic or spiritual, the results will be actions worthy
of the divine propeller...It is the function of the physical, lower mind to
act upon the physical organs and their cells; but, it is the higher mind
alone which can influence the atoms interacting in those cells, which
interaction is alone capable of exciting the brain, via the spinal "center"
cord, to a mental representation of spiritual ideas far beyond any objects
on this material plane.

The phenomena of divine consciousness have to be regarded as activities of
our mind on another and a higher plane, working through something less
substantial than the moving molecules of the brain...Occultism teaches that
the liver and the spleen-cells are the most subservient to the action of our
"personal" mind, the heart being the organ par excellence through which the
"Higher" Ego acts--through the Lower Self."
HPB-- "Psychic and Noetic Action" -- HPB Art. II 22-3


"...the plastic power of the imagination is much stronger in some persons
than in others. The mind is dual in its potentiality; It is physical and
metaphysical. The higher part of the mind is connected with the spiritual
soul or Buddhi, the lower with the animal soul, the Kama principle.  

There are persons who never think with the higher faculties of their mind at
all; those who do so are the minority and are thus, in a way, beyond, if
not above, the average of human kind. The idiosyncrasy of the person
determines in which "principle" of the mind the thinking is done, as also
the faculties of a preceding life, and sometimes the heredity of the
physical. This is why it is so very difficult for a materialist--the
metaphysical portion of whose brain is almost atrophied--to raise himself,
or for one who is naturally spiritually minded, to descend to the level of
the matter-of-fact vulgar thought...[ Thinking to be developed in the higher
mind ? ]..

Certainly it can be developed, but only with great difficulty, a firm
determination, and through much self-sacrifice...This difference depends
simply on the innate power of the mind to think on the higher or on the
lower plane, with the astral...or with the physical brain.  


Great intellectual powers are often no proof of, but are the impediments to
spiritual and right conceptions...The person who is endowed with this
faculty of thinking about even the most trifling things from the higher
plane of thought has, by virtue of that gift which he possesses, a plastic
power of formation, so to say, in his very imagination...his thought will be
so far more intense that the thought of an ordinary person, that by his very
intensity it obtains the power of creation...thought is an energy. This
energy in its action disturbs the atoms of the astral atmosphere around
us...the rays of thought have the same potentiality for producing forms in
the astral atmosphere as the sun rays have with regard to a lens. Every
thought so evolved with energy from the brain, creates nolens volens a
shape."
HPB-- Dialogues --	HPB Art. II 42-3


"...the human brain is simply the canal between two planes--the
psycho-spiritual and the material--through which every abstract and
metaphysical idea filters from the Manasic down to the lower human
consciousness. Therefore the ideas about the infinite and the absolute are
not, nor can they be, within our brain capacities. They can be faithfully
mirrored only by our Spiritual consciousness, thence to be more of less
faintly projected on to the tables of our perceptions on this plane. Thus
while the records of even important events are often obliterated from our
memory, not the most trifling action of our lives can disappear from the
"Soul's" memory, because it is no memory for it, but an ever-present reality
on the plane which lies outside our conceptions of space and time. "Man is
the measure of all things," said Aristotle; and surely he did not mean by
man, the form of flesh, bones and muscles ? ... As our world is mostly
formed of imperceptible beings which are the real constructors of its
continents, so likewise is man."
HPB--Memory in the Dying--	HPB Art. II 378-9



"This is precisely what occult philosophy claims; our Ego is a ray of the
Universal Mind, individualized for the space of a cosmic life-cycle, during
which space of time it gets experience in almost numberless reincarnations
or rebirths, after which it returns to its Parent-Source.
 

The Occultist would call the "Higher Ego" the immortal Entity, whose shadow
and reflection is the human Manas, the mind limited by its physical
senses...In the course of natural evolution our "brain-mind" will be
replaced by a finer organism, and helped by the 6th and the 7th senses.
Even now, there are pioneer minds who have developed these senses."

Theos. Art. & Notes, p. 208


"Our "memory" is but a general agent, and its "tablets," with their
indelible impressions, but a figure of speech; the "brain-tablets" serve
only as a upadhi or a vahan (basis or vehicle) for reflecting at a given
moment the memory of one or another thing. The records of past events, of
every minutest action, and of passing thoughts, in fact, are realty
impressed on the imperishable waves of the Astral Light, around us and
everywhere, not in the brain alone; and these mental pictures, images, and
sounds, pass from these waves via the consciousness of the personal Ego or
Mind (the lower Manas) whose grosser essence is astral, into the "cerebral
reflectors," so to say, of our brain, whence they are delivered by the
psychic to the sensuous consciousness. This at every moment of the day, and
even during sleep."	Theos. Art. & Notes, p. 209


"...Genius--an abnormal aptitude of mind--that develops and grows, or the
physical brain, is vehicle, which becomes...fitter to receive and manifest
from within outwardly the innate and divine nature of man's over-soul."	
HPB-- "Genius"	-- HPB Art. II 119
	

----------------------------------------

Best wishes,

Dallas
 
==============================

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosalie 
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 7:34 AM
To: 
Subject: [bn-study] 

Sorry that I'm late in continuing with this interesting discussion.

CUT 




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