Theos-Talk Archives (September 2004 Message tt00249)

Gregory,

Thanks for your answers to my questions.

Regarding your comments:

"However, it seems to me that the question 
of Leadbeater's birth date is being approached 
from the wrong direction. It is a standard 
rule of evidence that an official, state 
document (e.f. a birth certificate given 
over the seal of the Registrar General) is 
accepted as evidence of a date of birth until 
and unless convincing contrary evidence 
is produced. I await such contrary evidence."

I certainly agree with that view but I had in
my mind the thought that maybe someone like Pedro
who might question the accuracy of the birth record 
(or even one or two more records !!! ) might at some
point be open to the accumulating weight of more 
documentary evidence.

Thank you for specifically pointing out:

"He [Leadbeater] gave his birth date [1854] on his 
application for ordination."

Therefore, although one might
concede that there is a possibility of some kind of error
on Leadbeater's birth record, I wonder
what Pedro or Anand thinks about the
birth date on his application for ordination.

Why would Leadbeater have put down 1854??

But I'm am aware of what KH said in a letter
to H.S. Olcott:

"...truth never comes, burglar-like, thro' 
barred windows and iron-sheathed doors."

No amount of evidence will suffice for some
people who prefer to believe something else.

I also asked:

". . . do you know of any caches of Leadbeater's 
letters from the 1880s and early 1890s?"

"Yes. There is correspondence between Leadbeater 
and Olcott while Leadbeater was in Ceylon. I have 
copies of it somewhere. There were a 
couple of letters to HPB and some to Sinnett."

Do you also have copies of the "couple of letters to
HPB and some to Sinnett?

If you ever find your copies, I would be most happy
to publish them on my website.

It seems to me that these letters might throw some
needed light on Leadbeater's attitude, mindset 
and activities during these crucial years.

I assume in these letters to Sinnett, Olcott and HPB
that Leadbeater does NOT mention having contacted
the Masters KH and DK either at Adyar or in Ceylon?

But I wonder if any of these letters mention his
plans to bring Jinarajadasa back to England with him.
>From what Sinnet writes in EARLY DAYS OF THEOSOPHY,
Leadbeater wrote that the Master KH wanted Jinarajadasa
brought back to England. I write this from memory 
and will have to consult Sinnett's book to verify it.

Anyway thanks again for your input.

Daniel










--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, gregory <gregory@z...> wrote:
> In response to Daniel's questions:
> 
> All my Leadbeater research material is now packed away in numerous 
boxes. 
> I am currently a Professor and Director of Postgraduate Programs in 
a 
> University Law School and lack the time (or I must add, the 
inclination) 
> to search them. However, it seems to me that the question of 
Leadbeater's 
> birth date is being approached from the wrong direction. It is a 
standard 
> rule of evidence that an official, state document (e.f. a birth 
> certificate given over the seal of the Registrar General) is 
accepted as 
> evidence of a date of birth until and unless convincing contrary 
evidence 
> is produced. I await such contrary evidence.
> 
> 1. From a research point of view, do you know when the 1847 
birthdate 
> first surfaced?
> 
> No. My own research was supplemented by that of Miss Lilian Storey, 
then 
> Librarian at the TS in London, and an accomplished genealogist. At 
the 
> request of John Coats she repeated all my research into 
Leadbeater's 
> family, and went further by tracking them through the British 
census 
> returns. However, neither of us searched the census records after 
> Leadbeater's ordination in the Church of England or his return to 
London 
> from Ceylon when he (presumably) would have submitted the data. 
This may 
> be an interesting avenue to pursue, and I have asked a colleague in 
> London (who is skilled at such research) to look at the census 
records 
> (when he has time).
> 
> 2. Did Mr. Leadbeater ever specifically state in writing when he 
was born?
> 
> He gave his birth date on his application for ordination. 
Leadbeater 
> would have reported his age (and thus indirectly the year of his 
birth) 
> when submitting census returns after about 1878 (see answer above). 
> Likewise when he registered his mother's death. His mother gave his 
age 
> when registering her husband's death.
> 
> 3. Also do you know of any caches of Leadbeater's letters from the 
1880s 
> and early 1890s?
> 
> Yes. There is correspondence between Leadbeater and Olcott while 
> Leadbeater was in Ceylon. I have copies of it somewhere. There were 
a 
> couple of letters to HPB and some to Sinnett. There would have been 
a 
> substantial number of letters written by Leadbeater in answer to 
> inquirers (this was one of his major roles when initially at Adyar) 
but, 
> as far as I know, there are no copies of these.
> 
> 4. I wonder if one needed to give one's age or birthdate on the 
> application for membership in the T.S.
> 
> No. I have a copy of Leadbeater's application for membership and it 
does 
> not include either birth date or age.
> 
> 5. Also since Leadbeater traveled out of England in 1884, would his 
> age/birthdate have been on his passport? If so, are passport 
records for 
> that year still archived somewhere
> in England?
> 
> I have some correspondence from the British passport agency 
regarding the 
> history of Britsih passport use. My recollection is that passports 
were 
> not generally required up until after World War I and that in the 
early 
> days of their use the information contained in them was simply that 
> provided by the holder without any need for documentary evidence in 
> support. Very different to today!
> 
> Dr Gregory Tillett