Theos-Talk Archives (August 2004 Message tt00429)

Aug 22 2004

Somehow John I seem to have got off on the wrong foot -- quite
unintentionally I assure you.

My answers are not aimed at any specific individual, but rather at something
written or said. And, they are based on what I have studied of THEOSOPHY in
the original writings of HPB. Of course they are subject to correction.

I am not attached to any "theosophical" organization and have no special
regard for the rules or strictures that any such body may try to impose on
its "members." I am an independent student of THEOSOPHY 

Also I write not for "beginners" or for "deeper students," but rather to put
before all that which I find expressed in the THEOSOPHICAL philosophy.

Many approach THEOSOPHY or its "bodies and societies" with various motives.
True.

I have nothing to say about that since anyone and everyone of us, has to
deal with the Karma of their (our) own choices. 

Some desire to learn about THEOSOPHY to see if any "powers" can be secured
for selfish use. Others are interested in psychic events and experiences.
Of these some desire to enjoy strange experiences; and others desire to find
out how and why they occur -- and what the rules and laws of Nature are in
that regard. Others, still, are interested in the deep philosophical
implications opened for testing and probing. 

So there you are.

I would say that anyone who approaches THEOSOPHY needs to study its
literature -- there is no other way to secure definite knowledge that one
can test in the workshop of our own minds.

Only one thing I will add -- I am quite sure that what HPB taught is not
what either Besant or CWL put out. And that anyone who compares the
teachings can find out for themselves. Personally, I trust HPB and the
Masters. I have never found them to be unfaithful or untrue. 

As to "Nirmanakaya" and "Mahatma" look up the meanings ascribed to them in
the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY .

Best wishes,

Dallas


See below please


NIRMANAKAYA (Sk.) Occultism.says: that Nirmanakaya, although meaning
literally a transformed "body;" is a state. The form is that of an adept or
yogi who enters, or chooses that post mortem condition in preference to the
Dharmakaya or absolute Nirvanic state. He does this because the latter kaya
separates him for ever from the world of form, conferring upon him a state
of selfish bliss, in which no other living being can participate, the adept
being thus precluded from the possibility of helping humanity, or even
devas.

As a Nirmanakaya, however, the man leaves behind him only his physical body,
and retains every other "principle" save the Kamic--for he has crushed this
our for ever from his nature, during life, and it can never resurrect in his
post mortem state.  

Thus, instead of going into selfish bliss, he chooses a life of
self-sacrifice, an existence which ends only with the life-cycle, in order
to be enabled to help mankind in an invisible yet most effective manner.
(See The Voice of the Silence, third treatise.pp. 69fn, 74, 77 & footnote.)

Thus a Nirmanakaya is.verily one, who whether a Chutuktu or a Khubilkhan, an
adept of a yogi during life, has since become a member of that invisible
Host which ever protects and watches over Humanity within Karmic limits.
Mistaken often for a "spirit," a Deva, God himself, etc., a Nirmanakaya is
ever a protecting, compassionate, verily a guardian angel, to him who
becomes worthy of his help..no one will be bold enough to say that this idea
of helping suffering mankind at the price of one's own almost interminable
self-sacrifice, is not one of the grandest and noblest that was ever evolved
from human brain."	THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY p. 231 -- HPB


"Nirmanakaya...is that ethereal form which one would assume when leaving his
physical he would appear in his astral body--having in addition all the
knowledge of an Adept. The Bodhisattva develops it in himself as he
proceeds on the Path. Having reached the goal and refused its fruition, he
remains on Earth, as an Adept; and when he dies, instead of going into
Nirvana, he remains in that glorious body he has woven for himself,
invisible to uninitiated mankind, to watch over and protect it...Thus, to be
enabled to help humanity, an Arhat who has won the right to Nirvana,
"renounces the Dharmakaya body" in mystic parlance; keeps, of the
Sambhogakaya, only the great and complete knowledge, and remains in his
Nirmanakaya body. The Esoteric School teaches that Gautama Buddha, with
several of his Arhats, is such a Nirmanakaya higher than whom, on account of
the great renunciation and sacrifice for mankind, there is none known."
VOICE 77-8



NIRMANAKAYA -- INVISIBLE, SPIRITS OF LIVING SAGES


"...those EGOS of great Adepts who have passed away, and are also known as
Nirmanakayas;...for whom--since they are beyond illusion--there is no
Devachan, and who, having either voluntarily renounced it for the good of
mankind, or not yet reached Nirvana, remain invisible on earth...they are
re-born over and over again...Who they are, "on earth"--every student of
Occult science knows..."	SD II 615



EVOLUTION OF THE IMMORTAL MAN


"It is the Spiritual evolution of the inner, immortal man that forms the
fundamental tenet in the Occult Sciences...the ONE Universal Life,
independent of matter...and...the individual intelligences that animate the
various manifestations of this Principle...The ONE Life is closely related
to the one law which governs the World of Being--KARMA." SD I 634



THE ETERNAL MAN


"...the true esoteric meaning is that most of them (the Agnishwatta Pitris)
were destined to incarnate as the Egos of the forthcoming crop of Mankind.
The human Ego is neither Atman nor Buddhi, but the higher Manas; the
intellectual fruition and the efflorescence of the intellectual
self-conscious Egotism--in the higher spiritual sense. The ancient works
refer to it as Karana Sarira on the plane of the Sutratma, which is the
golden thread on which, like beads, the various personalities of this higher
Ego are strung...these beings were returning Nirvanees, from preceding
Maha-Manvantaras--ages of incalculable duration..."	
SD II 79


"...from the Sun to the vital heat of the meanest organic being--the world
of Form and Existence is an immense chain, whose links are all connected."
SD I 604



SAVIOURS OF NATIONS AND OF MEN -- 
TEACHERS OF TRUTH -- ALIVE NOW


"[The ADEPT]...serves humanity and identifies himself with the whole world;
he is ready to make vicarious sacrifice for it at any moment--by living not
by dying for it. Why should he not die for it? Because he is part of the
whole, and one of the most valuable parts of it. Because he lives under
laws of order which he does not desire to break. His life is not his own,
but that of the forces which work behind him. He is the flower of humanity,
the bloom which contains the divine seed. He is, in his own person, a
treasure of the universal nature. which is guarded and made safe in order
that the fruition shall be perfected. It is only at definite periods of the
world's history that he is allowed to go among the herd of men as their
redeemer."	LIGHT ON THE PATH p. 72-3 
[ see also S D I 207 - 210 ]


"At times they come to nations as great teachers and "saviours," who only
repromulgate the old truths and systems of ethics. This therefore holds
that humanity is capable of infinite perfection both in time and quality,
the saviours and adepts being held up as examples of that possibility.

>From this living and presently acting body of perfected men H.P.Blavatsky
declared she received the impulse to once more bring forward the old ideas,
and from them also received several keys to ancient and modern doctrines.
Added...to the testimony through all time found in the records of all
nations we have this modern explicit assertion that the ancient learned and
humanitarian body of adepts still exists on this earth and takes an interest
in the development of the race." WQJ ARTICLES I pp. 1-2



NIRMANAKAYAS WORK -- THEIR RELATIONS WITH US


"Nirmanakayas. They are men who have become perfected--who could if they
chose reach up to and hold the very highest state of bliss, but who refuse
that bliss because it would mean forever to forsake all chance of helping
their fellow-men. They can, when the nature of the person is true and
aspiring strongly, communicate, if it is necessary to help him. But there
is no mistake in these communications. They are personal, meant for that
one as direct help. It is the within which induces any outside help that we
receive. It is a recognition of the spiritual nature of ourselves and all
beings which makes the true condition. It is from the spiritual that the
strength comes. And it is for the perfection of humanity that all the
Divine Incarnations have labored."	RC -- FP p. 258



WE ARE NEVER 'LEFT ALONE," OR "ABANDONED" 
BY THE ADEPTS, OR "ELDER BROTHERS"


"Never have we been left alone. Always there are beings greater in
evolution than we, who return to this field of physical existence to help
us, to wake us up to a perception of our natures. Such has been the mission
of all Divine Incarnations down the ages. Those beings have come and lived
among us, have become "in all things like unto us," as was said of Jesus, in
order that the human words They spoke should be words we would understand.
They meet us on the basis of our ideas and try to clarify them and set them
in a true course. They can do nothing to stop what (338) we have done and
what we want to do; They can not interfere; but They can help us to see
the right direction, if we are so willed...Always They try to help us, even
when we are proceeding along wrong lines and bringing upon ourselves the
suffering such wrong lines entail--even then They try to direct the results
into a better channel..."	RC -- FP p. 337-8



"PERFECTED SOULS" -- STAND AS EXAMPLES TO US

"No one can know anything for another. Each one has to know for himself.
Each one has to do his own learning. The object of Theosophy is to teach
man what he is, to show man what he is, and to present to him the necessity
of his knowing for himself. No vicarious atonement, no vicarious
transmission of knowledge, is possible. But the direction in which
knowledge lies can be pointed out; the steps which will lead us in that
direction may be shown, as can be done only by those who have passed that
way before...It is the doctrine of Krishna, of Buddha, of Jesus, no less
than the doctrine of H.P.B... The very fact of suffering is a blessing.
Karma and Reincarnation show us that suffering is brought about by wrong
thought and action; through our sufferings we may be brought to a
realization that a wrong course has been pursued. We learn through our
sufferings.

Life is one grand school of Being, and we have come to that stage where it
is right for us to learn to understand the purpose of existence; to grasp
our whole nature firmly; to use every means in our power in every
direction...to bring the whole of our nature into accord, so that our lower
instrument may be "in line" and thus more and more fully reflect our divine
natures."	RC -- FP p. 263



FINAL CHOICE OF NIRVANA OR RENUNCIATION 
					

"... we know that at a certain period of progress, far above this sublunary
world, the adept reaches a point when he may, if he so chooses, formulate a
wish that he might be one of the Devas, one of the bright host of beings of
whose pleasure and glory and power we can have no idea. The mere
formulation of the wish is enough. At that moment he becomes one of the
Devas. He then for a period of time which in its extent is incalculable,
enjoys that condition--then what? Then he has to begin again low down on
the scale, in a mode and for a purpose which it would be useless to detail
here, because it could not be understood..."
WQJ ARTICLES I pp 8-9



FINAL INITIATION

"Every Buddha meets at his last initiation all the great adepts who reached
Buddhahood during the preceding ages...every class of adepts has its own
bond of spiritual communion which knits them together...The only possible
and effectual way of entering into such brotherhood...is by bringing oneself
within the influence of the Spiritual light which radiates from one's own
Logos...such communion is only possible between persons whose souls derive
their life and sustenance from the same divine RAY, and that, as seven
distinct rays radiate from the 'Central Spiritual Sun,' all adepts and Dhyan
Chohans are divisible into 7 classes, each of which is guided, controlled,
and overshadowed by one of the 7 forms or manifestations of the divine
wisdom."	(S. Rao quoted - THEOSOPHIST, AUG. 1886) SD I 574


BODHISATTVA - NIRMANAKAYA (Sk.) "Remember, thou that fightest for man's
liberation,* each failure is success and each sincere attempt wins its
reward in time." * This is an allusion to a well-known belief in the
East...that every additional Buddha or Saint is a new soldier in the army of
those who work for the liberation, or salvation of mankind. In Northern
Buddhist countries, where the doctrine of the Nirmanakayas--those
Bodhisattvas who renounce well-earned Nirvana or the Dharmakaya vesture
(both of which shut them out forever from the world of men) in order to
invisibly assist mankind and lead it finally to Paranirvana--is taught,
every new Bodhisattva, or initiated great Adept, is called the "liberator of
mankind."	VOICE OF THE SILENCE, p. 69


"A Bodhisattva is, in the hierarchy, less than a "perfect Buddha." In the
exoteric parlance these two are very much confused. Yet the innate and
right popular perception, owing to that self-sacrifice has placed a
Bodhisattva higher in its reverence than a Buddha.

This same popular reverence calls "Buddhas of Compassion" those Bodhisattvas
who, having reached the rank of an Arhat (i.e., have completed the fourth or
seventh Path), refuse to pass into the Nirvanic state or "don the Dharmakaya
robe and cross to the other shore," as it would then become beyond their
power to assist men even so little as Karma permits. They prefer to remain
invisibly (in Spirit, so to speak) in the world, and contribute towards
man's salvation by influencing them to follow the Good Law, i.e., lead them
on the Path of Righteousness..."	VOICE OF THE SILENCE, p. 77


"KUMARAS" -- THE CUSTODIANS OF THE MYSTERIES -- 
THE UNDYING RACE


"Alone a handful of primitive men -- in whom the spark of divine Wisdom
burnt bright, and only strengthened in its intensity as it got dimmer and
dimmer with every age in those who turned it to bad purposes--remained the
elect custodians of the Mysteries revealed to mankind by the divine
Teachers. There were those among them, who remained in their Kumaric
condition from the beginning; and tradition whispers, what the secret
teachings affirm, namely, that these Elect were the germs of a Hierarchy
which never died since that period:--

"The inner man of the first * * * only changes his body from time to time;
he is ever the same, knowing neither rest nor Nirvana, spurning Devachan and
remaining constantly on Earth for the salvation of mankind ..." "Out of the
seven virgin-men (Kumara) four sacrificed themselves for the sins of the
world and the instruction of (282) the ignorant, to remain till the end of
the present Manvantara. Though unseen, they are ever present. When people
say of one of them, "He is dead;" behold, he is alive and under another
form. These are the Head, the Heart, the Soul, and the Seed of undying
knowledge (Gnyana). Thou shalt never speak, O Lanoo, of these great ones
(Maha...) before a multitude, mentioning them by their names. The wise
alone will understand." (Catechism of the Inner Schools.)	SD II 281-2



MAHATMA	(Sk.)	Lit., "great soul." An adept of the highest order. Exalted
beings who, having attained to the mastery over their lower principles are
thus living unimpeded by the "man of flesh," and are in possession of
knowledge and power commensurate with the stage they have reached in their
spiritual evolution. Called in Pali Rahats and Arhats."	GLOS 201


"A visitor from one of the other planets of the solar system who might learn
the term Mahatma after arriving here would certainly suppose that the
etymology of the word undoubtedly inspired the believers in Mahatmas with
the devotion, fearlessness, hope, and energy which such an ideal should
arouse in those who have the welfare of the human race at heart...The whole
sweep, meaning, and possibility of evolution are contained in the word
Mahatma.. Maha is "great," Atma is "soul," and both compounded into one
mean those great souls who have triumphed before us not because they are
made of different stuff and are of some strange family, but just because
they are of the human race.

Reincarnation, karma, the sevenfold division, retribution, reward, struggle,
failure, success, illumination, power, and a vast embracing love for man,
all these lie in that single word.

The soul emerges from the unknown, begins to work in and with matter, is
reborn again and again, makes karma, develops the 6 vehicles for itself,
meets retribution for sin and punishment for mistake, grows strong by
suffering, succeeds in bursting through the gloom, is enlightened by true
illumination, grasps power, retains charity, expands with love for orphaned
humanity, and thenceforth helps all others who remain in darkness until all
may be raised up to the place with the "Father in Heaven" who is the Higher
Self."	WQJ -- ART. II, p. 39-40


"The real Mahatma is then not his physical body but that higher Manas which
is inseparably linked to the Atma and its vehicle (6th principle) -- a union
effected by him in a comparatively very short period by passing through the
self-evolution laid down by the Occult Philosophy." HPB ART I 293



===========================



-----Original Message-----
From: samblo
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 5:13 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: Leadbeater & Besant about Each Other

Dallas,
Thanks for your comments as always. Respectfully I differ from your 
expressed point of view in several ways. As the thread topic of most recent
posts has involved a rather intense airing on the topic of Freedom of
Expression vis Theosophical points of view and attempts by Adyar or others
to govern, mediate, restrict or censor the Free interchange of idea's,
views, and perspectives as well as the free investigation delving into the
integral reality of the Human and his Economy of Constitution I am a bit
surprised at your response. I always place value on your willingness to be
open as this is a benchmark Madame Blavatsky perennially campaigned for and
about. 

As to the use of "Nirmanakaya " we have an honest difference of opinion in 
our point of view. I never used the term "Mahatma" in my post and if I had 
intended to indicate I would have as it is different to me than my use of 
Nirmanakaya from my view. Please understand I never intended to indicate
Mahatma directly or obliquely in my usage of Nirmanakaya so that at least
from the perspective of my post should not enter into this discussion.

You are right, the question I posed was out of curiosity, certainly there

is no sin in that as it was a major impelling force that was so very
important 
as a prime purpose in the original formation of the Theosophical Society in 
1875. If curiosity were to have been banished then what success in
membership 
would have occurred? I reserved the right to be "curious," it has always
served 
me well, if I had not been curious in the first place you would probably 
never had seen me subscribed to this Forum.

In the History of Theosophy published there are manifold narratives by 
Madame Blavatsky, A. P. Sinnett, Henry Steele Olcutt, Damador, and many
others, 
at seems to me a couple of dozen important personalities have openly made 
mention of their own experiences. When reading of the Yoga of India and the 
Tibetans there are numerous published indications of personal experiences.
It is in 
the open and not withheld. Nor have the known incidents that were antecedent
to 
1875 been found to expressly use the term "Mahatma" when addressing the 
personage that was source of the event. Borborka wrote "H. P. Blavatsky,
Tibet and 
Tulku" and informed many of Theosophy who value his work on this same
subject. 
Tulku's are "Skywalkers," Nirmanakaya. The Dalai Lama is Tulku. In the 
Christian Gospel the Disciples saw Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration in
his 
Transformation Form, to me this is also correlate with the wide tradition
that 
Blavatsky wrote so much about and represented to the Western world in free
full 
view for the expansion of their consciousness.

Also Madame Blavatsky as you previously posted made mention that William 
Quan Judge himself was a portion of her own higher beingness, which is one 
reason I asked the question, there is also a teaching on "Pan Determination"
about 
multiple simultaneous Bi-location of Consciousness that can be performed, 
another reason I asked the question, this is also Historical to the World
and 
certainly not unique to the two Mahatma's of Theosophy.
I realized when I posted the question that of course a positive response 
would not be capable of providing any proof one way or another so I agree
with 
you on that but there is no harm in asking a question.
I put it to all on the Forum not limited to any specific person.

If I remember right there were people that the Mahatma's made visitation 
too just to jostle their dilettante consciousness for better or for worse,
some 
proved to change their direction in life, others ridiculed it all in a 
"denial" response, be that as it may it did become a record of significance
that 
still is presented to new people and old, in some cases there was no serious
work 
found in some up to that point in their life that would be commendable in 
terms of Theosophy.

you seem to assign freely in the case, uniquely, attributes to others, 
selfishness, one up-manship unnecessarily, I see you view but tend to not
align 
to that in my personal perspective. Why propose this in the first place?

Dallas, we do not all here on this Forum take the same stance and point
of 
view as is manifoldly evident, there is also virtue in Granting Beingness to

others as there is no such single Homogeneity to be found as far as I can 
perceive, that may be my own short coming, but Universals are not obtainable
at 
the corporeal level else there would be observable empirical evidence that
we 
could all see by direct inspection. Ideals inspire, we live in this reality
for 
the time being.

What "Rule of Secrecy?" Should we no burn all those Theosophical Books 
because they had stated so clearly many instances akin to the question I
posed? I 
am not under a "Sworn Rule of Secrecy" the ideal state of the Being is to 
communicate with total Freedom is the maxim I operate under regardless of
the 
volitional choices of others. I do respect the others knowing that there is
a 
wide differentiation in their private context.

I all honesty, I did also have a personal perspective when I asked the 
question that as to your question "what has been learned?" contributed to
posing 
the question, there has been quite a bit of discussion here about "The Next 
Messenger" in regard to 1975 AD, my reasoning is that if such were to be the

case it is possible that there might have been similar operations of 
presentments concurrent to such becoming and active process. I for one do
not expect a 
"Christ" or "Maitreya" in any context of immediate sense. What would seem
most 
likely to me is the appearance of some "Proper Gradient" in the context of
the 
origination's of that "Next Messenger."

Like it or not the proof in the pudding is that what happened after 
Blavatsky that transformed one format into another format in my view was
that 
people reverted to a resonance that equivocated to fondness for the Astral
complete 
with form and imagery along with their having been presented with a new 
Manifold Schematic of Hierarchy mediated by the momentarily suppressed
Western 
Religiosity which when Blavatsky passed reappeared in full force but in new 
clothing provided by the known originators of such. Morten has written in
various 
contents about apsects of this transformation. The Crux of this matter is
that 
people in vacuum decide "I only have what I have" and what they find they
have 
had that served them can now serve them once again, the important thing to 
them is to have "something" that can be "real" to them. So it goes
individual and 
collective personal decision are made. What Theosophy could do is to define 
the appropriate "Gradient" once again for it's public and make it what they 
most will "Reach" for.

I think a lot of people that join this Forum did not join it to study 
"Philosophy" per se but due to a sincere interest to delve into a deeper
knowledge 
of Theosophy as it is found Historically and at present. I do not see 
extensive Dialectic of any school as the main topic found here. Most of the
time 
threads are about whether the Mahatma Letters are real or not and various
other 
things attendant to them.

Dallas please receive my very best regards, wishes and respect for you and

your constancy arid work,

John