Theos-Talk Archives (May 2004 Message tt00079)

March 7th 2004

Dear Friend:

Thanks for your answer

Please see comments below

Dallas
 
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-----Original Message-----

From: krish
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 1:33 PM
To: theos-talk	AA-BNStudy
Subject: Re: recorders on Karma?

Thursday, May 06, 2004 


Dear K

"My point of view" ? You ask about it?  

I try to coincide with the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS -- which, so few people
seem to be familiar with. (If they were, they would answer their own
questions.)   


No one can talk about THEOSOPHY unless they are familiar with the
"fundamentals" and the "sources."

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-------------------------------------

DTB	I TRY TO BE AS IMPERSONAL AS POSSIBLE AND LET THEOSOPHY SPEAK
FOR ITSELF.

==============================================

K

-How come! So there is no theosophy to talk and think about if not
based in HPB´s teachings?

and what about those mystic men that gained their illumination without
ever pout their eyes in any theosophical book?

Example?

Ramana Maharshi! He left school very soon and his only access to a "
higher awareness" was through self development, so great it was that
many researchers and seekers came to Him jut to gather his light, in
his holy presence.

He was more Buddhist and advanced in evolution than any student who
knows the entire SD by heart.

And he seldom talked.

=====================================================

DTB


THEOSOPHY is ancient wisdom -- Sanatana dharma. "Theosophy was a word
first used by Pythagoras and it is Greek and means "WISDOM OF GOD."

See what she says at the beginning of the SECRET DOCTRINE :

----------------------------

"These truths are in no sense put forward as a revelation; nor does
the author claim the position of a revealer of mystic lore, now made
public for the first time in the world's history. For what is
contained in this work is to be found scattered throughout thousands
of volumes embodying the scriptures of the great Asiatic and early
European religions, hidden under glyph and symbol, and hitherto left
unnoticed because of this veil. What is now attempted is to gather the
oldest tenets together and to make of them one harmonious and unbroken
whole. The sole advantage which the writer has over her predecessors,
is that she need not resort to personal speculations and theories. For
this work is a partial statement of what she herself has been taught
by more advanced students, supplemented, in a few details only, by the
results of her own study and observation. The publication of many of
the facts herein stated has been rendered necessary by the wild and
fanciful speculations in which many Theosophists and students of
mysticism have indulged, during the last few years, in their endeavour
to, as they imagined, work out a complete system of thought from the
few facts previously communicated to them. 

It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret
Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its
fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which
have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all
resemblance to the truth. 

But it is perhaps desirable to state unequivocally that the
teachings, however fragmentary and incomplete, contained in these
volumes, belong neither to the Hindu, the Zoroastrian, the Chaldean,
nor the Egyptian religion, neither to Buddhism, Islam, Judaism nor
Christianity exclusively. The Secret Doctrine is the essence of all
these. Sprung from it in their origins, the various religious schemes
are now made to merge back into their original element, out of which
every mystery and dogma has grown, developed, and become materialised.


It is more than probable that the book will be regarded by a large
section of the public as a romance of the wildest kind; for who has
ever even heard of the book of Dzyan? 

The writer, therefore, is fully prepared to take all the
responsibility for what is contained in this work, and even to face
the charge of having invented the whole of it. That it has many
shortcomings she is fully aware; all that she claims for it is that,
romantic as it may seem to many, its logical coherence and consistency
entitle this new Genesis to rank, at any rate, on a level with the
"working hypotheses" so freely accepted by modern science. Further, it
claims consideration, not by reason of any appeal to dogmatic
authority, but because it closely adheres to Nature, and follows the
laws of uniformity and analogy. 

The aim of this work may be thus stated: to show that Nature is
not "a fortuitous concurrence of atoms," and to assign to man his
rightful place in the scheme of the Universe; to rescue from
degradation the archaic truths which are the basis of all religions;
and to uncover, to some extent, the fundamental unity from which they
all spring; finally, to show that the occult side of Nature has never
been approached by the Science of modern civilization. 

If this is in any degree accomplished, the writer is content. It
is written in the service of humanity, and by humanity and the future
generations it must be judged. Its author recognises no inferior court
of appeal. Abuse she is accustomed to; calumny she is daily acquainted
with; at slander she smiles in silent contempt. 

De minimis non curat lex. H.P.B. London, October, 1888.


SECRET DOCTRINE I vii-viii


-------------------------------------------------------------

also. From ISIS UNVEILED :



ISIS UNVEILED I v - vii

"The book is written in all sincerity. It is meant to do even justice,
and to speak the truth alike without malice or prejudice. But it shows
neither mercy for enthroned error, nor reverence for usurped
authority. It demands for a spoliated past, that credit for its
achievements which has been too long withheld. 

It calls for a restitution of borrowed robes, and the vindication of
calumniated but glorious reputations. Toward no form of worship, no
religious faith, no scientific hypothesis has its criticism been
directed in any other spirit. Men and parties, sects and schools are
but the mere ephemera of the world's day. TRUTH, high-seated upon its
rock of adamant, is alone eternal and supreme. 
   
We believe in no Magic which transcends the scope and capacity
of the human mind, nor in "miracle," whether divine or diabolical, if
such imply a transgression of the laws of nature instituted from all
eternity. Nevertheless, we accept the saying of the gifted author of
Festus, that the human heart has not yet fully uttered itself, and
that we have never attained or even understood the extent of its
powers. Is it too much to believe that man should be developing new
sensibilities and a closer relation with nature? 

The logic of evolution must teach as much, if carried to its
legitimate conclusions. If, somewhere, in the line of ascent from
vegetable or ascidian to the noblest man a soul was evolved, gifted
with intellectual qualities, it cannot be unreasonable to infer and
believe that a faculty of perception is also growing in man, enabling
him to descry facts and truths even beyond our ordinary ken. Yet we do
not hesitate to accept the assertion of Biffé, that "the essential is
forever the same. Whether we cut away the marble inward that hides the
statue in the block, or pile stone upon stone outward till the temple
is completed, our NEW result is only an old idea. 

The latest of all the eternities will find its destined other
half-soul in the earliest." When, years ago, we first travelled over
the East, exploring the penetralia of its deserted sanctuaries, two
saddening and ever-recurring questions oppressed our thoughts: Where,
WHO, WHAT is GOD? Who ever saw the IMMORTAL SPIRIT of man, so as to
be able to assure himself of man's immortality? 

It was while most anxious to solve these perplexing problems that
we came into contact with certain men, endowed with such mysterious
powers and such profound knowledge that we may truly designate them as
the sages of the Orient. To their instructions we lent a ready ear. 

They showed us that by combining science with religion, the existence
of God and immortality of man's spirit may be demonstrated like a
problem of Euclid. For the first time we received the assurance that
the Oriental philosophy has room for no other faith than an absolute
and immovable faith in the omnipotence of man's own immortal self. 

We were taught that this omnipotence comes from the kinship of man's
spirit with the Universal Soul — God! The latter, they said, can never
be demonstrated but by the former. Man-spirit proves God-spirit, as
the one drop of water proves a source from which it must have come.
Tell one who had never seen water, that there is an ocean of water,
and he must accept it on faith or reject it altogether. But let one
drop fall upon his hand, and he then has the fact from which all the
rest may be inferred. After that he could by degrees understand that a
boundless and fathomless ocean of water existed. 

Blind faith would no longer be necessary; he would have supplanted it
with KNOWLEDGE. When one sees mortal man displaying tremendous
capabilities, controlling the forces of nature and opening up to view
the world of spirit, the reflective mind is overwhelmed with the
conviction that if one man's spiritual Ego can do this much, the
capabilities of the FATHER SPIRIT must be relatively as much vaster as
the whole ocean surpasses the single drop in volume and potency. Ex
nihilo nihil fit; prove the soul of man by its wondrous powers — you
have proved God! In our studies, mysteries were shown to be no
mysteries. 

Names and places that to the Western mind have only a significance
derived from Eastern fable, were shown to be realities. Reverently we
stepped in spirit within the temple of Isis; to lift aside the veil of
"the one that is and was and shall be" at Saïs; to look through the
rent curtain of the Sanctum Sanctorum at Jerusalem; and even to
interrogate within the crypts which once existed beneath the sacred
edifice, the mysterious Bath-Kol. The Filia Vocis — the daughter of
the divine voice —
responded from the mercy-seat within the veil,* and science, theology,
every human hypothesis and conception born of imperfect knowledge,
lost forever their authoritative character in our sight. The
one-living God had spoken through his oracle —man, and we were
satisfied. Such knowledge is priceless; and it has been hidden only
from those who overlooked it, derided it, or denied its existence. "
I U I v - vii


"THERE exists somewhere in this wide world an old Book — so very old
that our modern antiquarians might ponder over its pages an indefinite
time, and still not quite agree as to the nature of the fabric upon
which it is written. It is the only original copy now in existence. 

The most ancient Hebrew document on occult learning — the Siphra
Dzeniouta — was compiled from it, and that at a time when the former
was already considered in the light of a literary relic. 

One of its illustrations represents the Divine Essence emanating from
ADAM * like a luminous arc proceeding to form a circle; and then,
having attained the highest point of its circumference, the ineffable
Glory bends back again, and returns to earth, bringing a higher type
of humanity in its vortex. As it approaches nearer and nearer to our
planet, the Emanation becomes more and more shadowy, until upon
touching the ground it is as black as night. 
    
A conviction, founded upon seventy thousand years of experience,†
as they allege, has been entertained by hermetic philosophers of all
periods that matter has in time become, through sin, more gross and
dense than it was at man's first formation; that, at the beginning,
the 

————————————————————————————————————
* The name is used in the sense of the Greek word anqropo" . 

† The traditions of the Oriental Kabalists claim their science to be
older than that. Modern scientists may doubt and reject the assertion.
They cannot prove it false. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------

human body was of a half-ethereal nature; and that, before the fall,
mankind communed freely with the now unseen universes. But since that
time matter has become the formidable barrier between us and the world
of spirits. The oldest esoteric traditions also teach that, before the
mystic Adam, many races of human beings lived and died out, each
giving place in its turn to another. 

Were these precedent types more perfect? Did any of them belong to the
winged race of men mentioned by Plato in Phædrus? It is the special
province of science to solve the problem. The caves of France and the
relics of the stone age afford a point at which to begin. 

As the cycle proceeded, man's eyes were more and more opened, until he
came to know "good and evil" as well as the Elohim themselves. Having
reached its summit, the cycle began to go downward. When the arc
attained a certain point which brought it parallel with the fixed line
of our terrestrial plane, the man was furnished by nature with "coats
of skin," and the Lord God "clothed them." 

This same belief in the pre-existence of a far more spiritual race
than the one to which we now belong can be traced back to the earliest
traditions of nearly every people. In the ancient Quiche manuscript,
published by Brasseur de Bourbourg — the Popol Vuh — the first men are
mentioned as a race that could reason and speak, whose sight was
unlimited, and who knew all things at once. 

According to Philo Judæus, the air is filled with an invisible host of
spirits, some of whom are free from evil and immortal, and others are
pernicious and mortal. "From the sons of EL we are descended, and
sons of EL must we become again." 

And the unequivocal statement of the anonymous Gnostic who wrote The
Gospel according to John, that "as many as received Him," i.e., who
followed practically the esoteric doctrine of Jesus, would "become the
sons of God," points to the same belief. (i., 12.) "Know ye not, ye
are gods?" exclaimed the Master. 

Plato describes admirably in Phædrus the state in which man once was,
and what he will become again: before, and after the "loss of his
wings"; when "he lived among the gods, a god himself in the airy
world." From the remotest periods religious philosophies taught that
the whole universe was filled with divine and spiritual beings of
divers races. From one of these evolved, in the course of time, ADAM,
the primitive man. 

The Kalmucks and some tribes of Siberia also describe in their legends
earlier creations than our present race. These beings, they say, were
possessed of almost boundless knowledge, and in their audacity even
threatened rebellion against the Great Chief Spirit. To punish their
presumption and humble them, he imprisoned them in bodies, and so shut
in their senses. From these they can escape but through long
repentance, self-purification, and development. Their Shamans, they
think, occasionally enjoy the divine powers originally possessed by
all human beings. 
ISIS UNVEILED I pp 1 - 3

--------------------------------------
DTB

In my view, "opinions" are useless. We are not seeking entertainment
and arguments, but rather to be strictly "Theosophical," we ought to
be seeking for TRUTH. Then we are conservative and do not waste it. 

=====================================================
K

-It´s not the case of looking for fun or not in theosophy. If opinion
is, as you state, useless, why to participate in a group where we can
learn from each other?

-So what do we learn from each other?

-Excuse me but I don´t really agree with this. If there something to
share in this list are opinions, views and quotes , comparisons, free
interpretation, reflexion.

-What´s seeking for truth for you?

-Quoting what it is written? And no opinion involved?

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DTB	When we seek truth we share it with each other.

==========================================

DTB

Another point.  

Are "opinions" of any use to any one? If they are incorrect, then
those who might adopt them are misled and may mislead others.  

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-But it doesn´t mean that they are useless.  


DTB	MAYBE -- BUT, HOW DO WE TELL THE DIFFERENCE ?

==================================================

DTB

If there are cases of such abuse, then the ripple of adverse Karma
goes on ad infinitum down the rolling waves of passing centuries - and
the originator of falsities bears a huge amount of guilt.   

Can you imagine how much adverse Karma is actually born by those who
pervert a "religions" or, "historical events"? 

=============================================

K

-Yes, I tend to agree on this, but you are giving here an extreme
situation, not applicable in a trade of points of view .
-Excuse me but the following states that you are making the job of an
archivist:


DTB	OF COURSE.

==============================================

DTB

My objective then, is to make those ORIGINAL SOURCES available, and
thus everyone can make up their own minds from the evidence. 

Of course, if you don't like the idea of KARMA, or the concept of
continued responsibility under the law of REINCARNATION, and their
infinite progress -- as the Eternal Pilgrim in every human as in
every atom of matter, and, of the Egoic Monad, then Theosophy has
little to offer. 

================================================
K

-Dallas, I hope it is only a brief and distorted view of mine but you
look here too much full of yourself. I hope it is an illusion.

================================================

DTB THAT SOUNDS PRETTY BAD. NOT INTENTIONAL.

SO I HAVE A GOOD POINT FOR STAYING IN THE BACKGROUND, AND LETTING HPB
AND THEOSOPHY TELL THEIR OWN TALE.

--------------------------------------------

So it boils down finally to a question of "liking" or "disliking."
And that is to me wishy-washy -- uncertain, vague and a waste of
everyone's time. 

=======================================
K

-No matter how we argue about the validity or not validity of
opinions, you are offering yours, anyway. 

My like or dislike about karma is not in discussion, because it´d soon
become a judgement.

I once met a friend that whenever i asked him a question about
something more philosophical he rushed to his old and worn-out Holy
Bible to find the exact explanation and the exact approximation to
what he was trying to express due to my question.

I found it very curious because I wondered where was the wisdom by
being aware of the exact localization of every verse and chapter of
his Bible?

He also used to say that the Bible had always got an answer. He then
ended the chat telling me :

"There is no need to read any other book than the Bible, books are
inventions of those who want to earn money selling them.

All you need is Bible, all the answers are here." 

----------------------

Dallas, 

Let´s not take it to offenses, i do really appreciate your
posts...they always have something good to offer.

But I didn´t understand your stating that opinions are not valid. I
think they do, but they must be always questioned and discussed, as
much as all we read.

Have a nice day

Krishtar

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DTB THANKS AND BEST WISHES

D