Theos-Talk Archives (January 2004 Message tt00205)

sHallo Dallas and all of you,

My views are:

It is allright.
And no problem with that.
Some readers will for sure learn by the texts.
Maybe it could be a good idea to suggest some of the readers to read one Dr.
Raymond A. Moody's books on this subject of near-death.

And I will have to admit that I was somewhat unprecise in my previous email.

What I just wanted to put to the attention was,
that many students knows about these things referred to, at least on a
necessary basic level.
Not by experience so much, but by reading or hearing about it.

What I thought was, that it was just intellectual stimulus - which was going
on.
Intellectual stimulations are allright so far they can be prooven fruitful.

But when they do not help the students, something else should be added
instead.

I think we at this place and at other places will have to distinguish
between
emotional and intellectual stimulations - being made by readers of the
theosophical texts -
AND the allegorical, senzar related and similar non-linear stimulations and
that fruit
they can yield - if they in addition are explained or not.

Blavatsky mentioned the importance of allegories in her famous book The
Secret Doctrine.
I do like allegories and what some call 'difficult texts'. Because they can
learn the eager students so
much more.
(The secret Doctrine, vol1. p. 310)
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-2-02.htm
But agreed, more ordinary informative texts, which on a intellectual level
can form
a basis for a theosophical hypothesis on spiritual development and
spirituality as such
would be just fine.
But they have their limitations as the link in the above clearly shows.



I was with other words just talking to those who knew about the basic
theachings.
And those who wanted to learn more about the allegories as well.

Let me seek to explain at least in part what I am talking about.
A few stories could be good:
1. Dangerous donkey
The great and venerable Sufi sage, Mullah Nasrudin, once raced through
Bagdad on his donkey, galloping as fast as the poor beast could travel.
Everybody got excited and people rushed into the streets to find out why the
philosopher was in such a great hurry.
"What are you looking for, Mullah?" somebody shouted.
"I'm looking for my donkey!" Nasrudin answered.

2. The donkey dies
"Nasruddin's donkey died. He collected some money with a lot of difficulties
and went to the bazaar to buy another one. He was going home with the new
donkey. On the way two thieves saw him. They thought of stealing the donkey.
One of them removed the rope from the donkey's neck and put it in his own
neck. The other thief took the donkey to the market and sold it. When
Nasruddin reached home and looked behind at the donkey he saw a man "the
thief" instead of the donkey and was amazed. I bought a donkey how it became
a man! Nasruddin thought! Then he asked the thief "Who are you?" The thief
answered, "I didn't respect my mother, she cursed me and I became a donkey."
"She took me to the market and sold me. Then you bought me. But because of
your blessings after talking a few steps I became a man again".

3. The truth
One day the King decided that he would force all his subjects to tell the
truth. A gallows was erected in front of the city gates. A herald announced,
"Whoever would enter the city must first answer the truth to a question
which will be put to him." Nasrudin was first in line. The captain of the
guard asked him, "Where are you going? Tell the truth -- the alternative is
death by hanging." "I am going," said Nasrudin, "to be hanged on that
gallows." "I don't believe you." "Very well, if I have told a lie, then hang
me!" "But that would make it the truth!" "Exactly," said Nasrudin, "your
truth."

But, maybe some of you would prefer the Bardo texts instead.
http://www.lycaeum.org/books/books/psychedelic_experience/tib21.html
(Explanations)
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/tibetan/the_tibetan_book_of_the_dead.htm
(There are other and better versions.)


I will finish of with Blavatsky's words from the above link:
"Hence, it is the Occultists and Kabalists who are the "true" heirs to the
KNOWLEDGE, or the secret wisdom which is still found in the Bible; for they
alone now understand its real meaning, whereas profane Jews and Christians
cling to the husks and dead letter thereof. That it is the system of
measures which led to the invention of the God-names Elohim and Jehovah, and
their adaptation to phallicism, and that Jehovah is a not very flattered
copy of Osiris, is now demonstrated by the author of the "Source of
Measures."
...
"The SEVEN KEYS open the mysteries, past and future, of the seven great Root
Races, as of the seven Kalpas. Though the genesis of man, and even the
esoteric geology, will surely be rejected by Science just as much as the
Satanic and pre-Adamic races, yet if having no other way out of their
difficulties the Scientists have to choose between the two, we feel certain
that, Scripture notwithstanding, once the mystery language is approximately
mastered, it is the archaic teaching that will be accepted."
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-2-02.htm


Did this help the readers ?

from
M. Sufilight with peace and love...


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: "AA-BN--Study" <study@blavatsky.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 2:37 AM
Subject: Theos-World RE: Talking with the dead -


> Jan 14 2004
>
> Re: Talking with the Dead -- Theosophical principles
>
>
> Dear Friends and M:
>
> As I understand it these exchanges are for the study and discovery of
> the Theosophical philosophy.
>
> You ask if any one is aware of the tenets of THEOSOPHY. The purpose of
> sending in an essay or a description is to inform. Readers may then
> make what use they desire of the information.
>
> I would advise a reading of the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY as it gives a
> detailed account and is short, being about 180 pages long. It is
> synopsis of the SECRET DOCTRINE and also embodies may of the statements
> and explanations that HPB gives so extensively in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY .
>
> These are available on www.Blavatsky.net for reading or
> downloading.
>
> No one is asked to "believe."
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dallas
>
> ============================
>
> The following may prove useful for further consideration:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> THE APPLICATION OF THEOSOPHICAL THEORIES
> The mistake is being made by a great many persons, among them being
> Theosophists, of applying several of the doctrines current in
> Theosophical literature, to only one or two phases of a question or to
> only one thing at a time, limiting rules which have universal
> application to a few cases, when in fact all those doctrines which have
> been current in the East for so long a time should be universally
> applied. For instance, take the law of Karma. Some people say, "yes, we
> believe in that," but they only apply it to human beings. They consider
> it only in its relation to their own acts or to the acts of all men.
> Sometimes they fail to see that it has its effect not only on themselves
> and their fellows, but as well on the greatest of Mahatmas. Those great
> Beings are not exempt from it; in fact they are, so to say, more bound
> by it than we are. Although they are said to be above Karma, this is
> only to be taken to mean that, having escaped from the wheel of Samsara
> (which means the wheel of life and death, or rebirths), and in that
> sense are above Karma, at the same time we will find them often unable
> to act in a given case. Why? If they have transcended Karma, how can it
> be possible that in any instance they may not break the law, or perform
> certain acts which to us seem to be proper at just that juncture? Why
> can they not, say in the case of a chela who has worked for them and for
> the cause, for years with the most exalted unselfishness, interfere and
> save him from suddenly falling or being overwhelmed by horrible
> misfortune; or interfere to help or direct a movement? It is because
> they have become part of the great law of Karma itself. It would be
> impossible for them to lift a finger.
> Again, we know that at a certain period of progress, far above this
> sublunary world, the adept reaches a point when he may, if he so
> chooses, formulate a wish that he might be one of the Devas, one of that
> bright host of beings of whose pleasure, glory and power we can have no
> idea. The mere formulation of the wish is enough. At that moment he
> becomes one of the Devas. He then for a period of time which in its
> extent is incalculable, enjoys that condition--then what? Then he has to
> begin again low down in the scale, in a mode and for a purpose which it
> would be useless to detail here, because it could not be understood, and
> also because I am not able to put it in any language with which I am
> conversant. In this, then, is not this particular adept who thus fell,
> subject to the law of Karma?
> There is in the Hindoo books a pretty story which illustrates this. A
> certain man heard that every day a most beautiful woman rose up out of
> the sea, and combed her hair. He resolved that he would go to see her.
> He went, and she rose up as usual. He sprang into the sea behind her,
> and with her went down to her abode. There he lived with her for a vast
> length of time. One day she said she had to go away and stated that he
> must not touch a picture which was on the wall, and then departed. In a
> few days, fired by curiosity, he went to look at the picture; saw that
> it was an enameled one of a most ravishingly beautiful person, and he
> put out his hand to touch it. At that moment the foot of the figure
> suddenly enlarged, flew out from the frame, and sent him back to the
> scenes of earth, where he met with only sorrow and trouble.
> The law of Karma must be applied to everything. Nothing is exempt from
> it. It rules the vital molecule from plant up to Brahma himself. Apply
> it then to the vegetable, animal and human kingdom alike.
> Another law is that of Reincarnation. This is not to be confined only to
> the souls and bodies of men. Why not use it for every branch of nature
> to which it may be applicable? Not only are we, men and women,
> reincarnated; but also every molecule of which our bodies are composed.
> In what way, then, can we connect this rule with all of our thoughts?
> Does it apply there? It seems to me that it does, and with as much force
> as anywhere. Each thought is of definite length. It does not last for
> over what we may call an instant, but the time of its duration is in
> fact much shorter. It springs into life and then it dies; but it is at
> once reborn in the form of another thought. And thus the process goes on
> from moment to moment, from hour to hour, from day to day. And each one
> of these reincarnated thoughts lives its life, some good, some bad, some
> so terrible in their nature that if we could see them we would shrink
> back in affright. Further than that, a number of these thoughts form
> themselves into a certain idea, and it dies to be reincarnated in its
> time. Thus on rolls this vast flood. Will it overwhelm us? It may; it
> often does. Let us then make our thoughts pure. Our thoughts are the
> matrix, the mine, the fountain, the source of all that we are and of all
> that we may be.
>
> WILLIAM Q. JUDGE
> The Occult Word, May, 1886
>
>
> =================================================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:21 PM
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Talking with the dead -
>
> Hallo Dallas and all of you,
>
> My views are:
>
> Can we expect people, who are not aware of the below issues in your
> email,
> to understand these theosophical views and even beliefs
> or what you call parts of knowledge as if you had them in your own
> possesion
> ?
>
> What do the average theosophist really know about reincarnation ?
> Not much I am afraid !
>
> How many theosophists are aware of and have a clear cut knowledge the
> reality of 7 planes ?
> How many of you have been on the highest level - the atmic ?
> How many of the average theosophist has actually tried to die ?
> Not many I am afraid !
>
> So why should they - just simply believe what you almost as a priest
> present
> to them in the below ?
> Shouldn't they use their reason instead ?
>
>
> Yes. I know.
> It is easy to ask questions.
> But, sometimes it is good to contemplate these questions. Also sometimes
> before emailing.
>
> (I have cut your - very very long email - so to be polite towards those
> with
> a slow connection.)
>
>
> from
> M. Sufilight with peace and love...
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@earthlink.net>
> To: "AA-BN--Study" <study@blavatsky.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 9:09 PM
> Subject: Theos-World RE: Talking with the dead -
>
>
> > Jan 14 2004
> >
> > Dear Friends:
> >
> > This may help,
> >
> > Dallas
> >
> > ==========================
> >
> >
> >
> > STATES AFTER DEATH
> >
> >
> > SOUL IS IMMORTAL -- MIND
> >
> >
> > EVOLUTION THROUGH REINCARNATION
> >
>
> >
> > STATES AFTER DEATH AND RELEVANT PRINCIPLES
>
> > SEVEN-FOLD CLASSIFICATION OF PRINCIPLES -- A BASIC
> >
> > Theosophy places the old doctrine before western civilization
> >
> > 1. 1. The Body, or Rupa.
> > 2. 2. Vitality, or Prana-Jiva.
> > 3. 3. Astral Body, or Linga-Sarira.
> > 4. 4. Animal Soul, or Kama-Rupa
> > 5. 5. Human Soul, or Manas.
> > 6. 6. Spiritual Soul, or Buddhi.
> > 7. 7. Spirit, or Atma, (This Principle synthesizes the
> > other 6.)
> >
> >
> >
> > REAL MAN:
> >
> >
> > LOWER VEHICLES:
> >
> > DEATH MARKS THE SEPARATION OF THE LOWER VEHICLE
> >
> > KAMA - DESIRE & PASSION ARE NOT MIND
> >
> >
> > A "GOOD" MAN
> >
> >
> >
> > A "BAD" MAN
> >
> >
> >
> > MIND -- THE 5th PRINCIPLE, AND ATMA-BUDDHI [THE MONAD]
> >
> >
> > THE LIGHTING UP OF MANAS
> >
> > Going back for a moment to the time when the races of mankind were
> > devoid of mind, the question arises, "Who gave the MIND, Where did it
> > come from, and What is it ?"
> >
> > It is the link between ATMA, the "Spirit of God above" and the
> > "personality" below. It was given to the mindless monads by others
> who
> > had gone through this process ages upon ages before in earlier worlds
> > and systems of worlds, and it came from other evolutionary periods
> which
> > were completed long before our solar system had begun. The manner in
> > which this light of mind was given to the Mindless Men can be
> understood
> > from the illustration of one candle lighting many. The Sons of Wisdom,
> > who are the Elder Brothers of every family of men on any Globe, have
> the
> > light, derived by them from others who reach back, and yet farther
> back,
> > in endless procession with no beginning or end. They set fire to the
> > combined lower principles and the Monad, thus lighting up Manas in the
> > "new men" and preparing another great race for final initiation.
> >
> >
> > MANAS [MIND] REINCARNATES
> >
> >
> > LOWER MANS -- BRAIN-MIND
> >
> MEMORY AS A DEATH VISION
> >
> > Memory of a prior life is not needed to prove that we passed through
> > that existence, nor is the fact of not remembering a good objection.
> We
> > forget the greater part of the occurrences of the years and days of
> this
> > life, but no one would say for that reason we did not go through these
> > years. We are all subject to the limitations imposed upon the Ego by
> > the new brain in each life. This is why we are not able to keep the
> > pictures of the past. The brain is the instrument for the memory of
> the
> > soul, and, being new in each life, has only a certain capacity. That
> > capacity will be fully availed of just according to the Ego's own
> desire
> > and prior conduct, because past living will have increased or
> diminished
> > its power.
> >
> > By living according to the dictates of the Soul, the brain may at
> least
> > be made porous to the Soul's recollections; as the brain-matter had no
> > part in the life last lived, it is in general unable to remember. And
> > this is a wise law, for we should be very miserable if the deeds of
> our
> > former lives were not hidden from our view until by discipline we
> become
> > able to bear a knowledge of them.
> >
> >
> >
> > HIGHER MANAS -- INTUITION, GENIUS.
> >
> > THE "GOD" IN MAN = ATMA - BUDDHI - MANAS
> >
> > INDIVIDUALITY IS PERMANENT -- IMMORTAL
> >
> >
> > MATTER -- ALSO PERMANENT -- HAS BEEN THROUGH ALL FORMS
> >
> >
> > PERFECTION FOR ALL ASPECTS OF MAN
> >
> >
> > MEMORY AS A DEATH VISION
> >
> >
> > UNIVERSAL LAWS AND REINCARNATION
> >
> >
> > AFTER DEATH STATES - CHRONOLOGY
> >
> >
> > DESIRES -- HAVE THEIR OWN PLACE
> >
> >
> > DEVACHAN
> >
> > Struggling out of the body Atma-Buddhi-Manas, begins to think in a
> > manner different from that which the body and brain permitted in life.
> > This is the state of Devachan, Sanskrit : "the place of the gods."
> The
> > Self in Devachan is devoid of a mortal body. The stay in Devachan is
> > proportionate to the merit earned by the being in its last life [from
> a
> > few year to as much as 100 centuries -- the average being about 1500
> > years] and when the mental forces peculiar to the state are exhausted,
> > "the being is drawn down again to be reborn in the world of mortals."
> >
> > Devachan is therefore an interlude between births in the world. The
> law
> > of karma which forces us all to enter the world, being ceaseless in
> its
> > operation and also universal in scope, acts also on the being in
> > devachan, for only by the force or operation of Karma are we taken out
> > of devachan.
> >
> > The last series of powerful and deeply imprinted thoughts are those
> > which give color and trend to the whole life in devachan. The last
> > moment will color each subsequent moment. On those the soul and mind
> fix
> > themselves and weave of them a whole set of events and experiences,
> > expanding them to their highest limit, carrying out all that was not
> > possible in life.
> >
> >
> > WHY DEVACHAN ?
> >
> > The necessity for this state after death is one of the necessities of
> > evolution growing out of the nature of Mind and Soul. The very nature
> of
> > manas requires a devachanic state as soon as the body is lost, and it
> is
> > simply the effect of loosening the bonds placed upon the mind by its
> > physical and astral encasement. In life we can but to a fractional
> > extent act out the thoughts we have each moment; and still less can we
> > exhaust the psychic energies engendered by each day's aspirations and
> > dreams. The energy thus engendered is not lost or annihilated, but is
> > stored in Manas, but the body, brain, and astral body permit no full
> > development of the force. Hence, held latent until death, it bursts
> then
> > from the weakened bonds and plunges Manas, the thinker, into the
> > expansion, use, and development of the thought-force set up in life.
> >
> >
> > (extracts from The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY (Judge)
> >
> > ===========================
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Morten
> > Subject: Talking with the dead - the Scole experiment in England
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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