Theos-Talk Archives (December 2003 Message tt00107)

Dec 8 2003

Dear Dennis:

Let me place some answers/queries in the text of yours (below)

Dal

===================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Kier [mailto:dennw3k@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:44 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Theosophy and TIME Physical Phenomena at a
Seance (3 of 3)


Dallas:

Somehow you keep missing my point.

DK
There are studies, and equipment around now, that were not there when
HPB was writing. She knew what was available during her life time, and
debated with the best minds in correspondence that were alive then.

--------------------------------------

DTB	If you read her well (I mean all her articles and books) you
will find she gave explanations that exceeded the limitations of
material science in her time.

She repeatedly states that OCCULT SCIENCE is age-old and covers every
aspect of study. Nature (the Universe and our Earth) are shown to run
by Laws and these have their roots in antiquity, not in the last 3 to
400 years of Theological-free work.  

Look at our world and its many complicated and interacting structures.
How and when were they devised? Is it safe for us to claim that their
study was never done far earlier? What do we know of the secret books
of China and India where detailed accounts of scientific investigation
in all departments are to be found?

She dealt with the invisible planes of force and power where CAUSES for
material phenomena are set up. These relate to the Mind. Have we
exhausted our own study of Mind-powers?

This limitation continues today. What is known of the "astral" or the
"psychic" and the "mental" today that was not known already in HPB's
time.

Brad statements need to be substantiated by examples by you if you are
making claims, you have to have some basis?

What causes healing in our bodies?

What defines the limits and functions of cells, and their cooperative
aggregations? Those happen, but the reason WHY is not yet discovered or
explained. The problems of cloning and growth, the healing of diseases
are all vague areas of present discovery and detection. There is little
accuracy or certainty there yet.

Go to the "psychic." Mind shaping matter, or changing its shape (Uri
Geller) -- Kirillian photography -- molecular, atomic, sub-atomic
forces are under definition but afford no clues yet to the formation of
new shapes. In other words the forces and fields that guide the
physical remain to be defined and discovered.

--------------------------------------------

DK
The things she wrote about in Séances, I have seen, and have seen more
mental and spiritual things in Séances that the physical things that
she describes.

Some of the things she described, I have seen flatly contradicted, and
that field alone has progressed. At the time she was alive, all these
Séances had to be held in dark rooms, with no lights. I have seen them
held in the bright sunlight. She denied that these things were
possible. Things evolve.

-------------------------------

DTB	HPB was and Adept and needed no "dark rooms." Accounts of her
phenomena (if you read them all) reveal that clearly. She was able to
guide and produce "phenomena." She was no medium.

You make statements and claims that are unsubstantiated. A review of
her writings shows the amplitude of her abilities and knowledge. It has
to be read. It is not vague, nor did she make any unsubstantiated
claims.  

Go to ISIS UNVEILED if you wish an historical review of ancient
knowledge, also go to her many articles where astral and psychic science
are considered.  

Read the SECRET DOCTRINE if you wish a coherent review of Cosmogenesis
and Anthropogenesis

---------------------------------

DK
As I said, she put down a good base, but things have progressed since
she was here. This is not 1891, and her words are no longer the last
work on many things. I feel that this is where we may disagree the
most. 

You hold that her words are the last words for the Human Race
for all Time, and I think that the Masters give a little out from
time to time to help humanity evolve, just as the Third Object of
Theosophy expected.

I observed during the years I attended Séances, that many of the
people there seemed stuck at the level of playing games with the
spirits, and would not, or could not, progress on into occult studies,
rebirth, karma, and many other things.

I (speculate) that perhaps you, and your long reams of boilerplate
quotes are stuck somewhere around 1900, and feel that all the
knowledge that the Masters will ever give humanity, has already been
given by HPB, and nothing ever will be learned about the secrets that
the Masters did not believe mankind was ready for in 1891. They
observed mankind progressing when HPB was writing, and gave out more
advanced teachings with the Secret Doctrine than they did in ISIS. I
feel that they give a little out from time to time, and that the words
of HPB are not the last information that the Masters will ever enable
mankind to discover.

------------------------------------------------

DTB	That is not my contention. If I held that I would be stupid,
and the epithet "bigot," or "fanatic," might well be hurled at me.

There are no "last words" in an advancing civilization where the whole
world and Kosmos are involved. But I can, and do say, that none of us
have yet fully grasped the implications of what HPB and the Masters of
Wisdom wrote.  

As said above they wrote of the CAUSES of physical effects and
phenomena. To grasp some aspects of that area that underlies
physical things is important. I do not think that attending Seances
helps in this. From all accounts, there is little improvement in that
area of research these days, as compared to HPB's.

We are (most of us) very proud of our superficial advances, but we do
not know enough of the details and the problems Science finds and works
with. A careful review of the last 125 years reveals this.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So, probably we differ fundamentally. We may be on different "Rays",
as AAB defines reality, and your approach is different than mine, both
tending toward the same goal.

Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: Theosophy and TIME Physical Phenomena at
a Seance (3 of 3)


> Dear Dennis:
>
> There are many pointers and references regarding the "psychic nature
and
> its powers" scattered through the theosophical literature. I have
> accumulated some, but that by no means all.
>
> What areas are you aiming at? Can you help by greater specificity?
>
> Dal
>