Theos-Talk Archives (December 2003 Message tt00045)

Dears 
Sometimes, in my humble opinion, this list shouldn´t turn into such an egos´ dispute.
What happens is that some members have an easier access to online versions and CD-Rom indexed Theosophy matters and passes on to those who formulate questions.
It is a great help and they do it unselfishlly.
Others like to act like a lind of ombudsman.Criticizing.
Not that I mean that we must accept everything but viewing the positive part of the messages is more important.
People like Morten and Dallas are mature, very polite and experienced people and like to help with these excerpts.
They contribute a lot with fresh information..
My personal view is this.

Krishtar

Morten Nymann Olesen 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World RE:: Physical Phenomena at a Seance (3 of 3)


Hallo Leon and all of you,

My views are just views:

It is a bit long this time.
But because some of the readers do not understand the subject.
I decided to expand a bit on the issue.

1.
a) If we have to find all out for ourselves, Blavatsky would NOT have had
any reason to say that there would be forwarded new techings around 1975,
agreed ?
b) Compassion do help when needed. And agreed compassion also do require
that the students learn how to think and act wisely themselves when needed.
c) Try this one.
http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/renewal.htm
Then you might understand why, there is a need to present the teaching ina
new light from time to time. --- But selfesteem and getting to attached to
ones
own writings has of course never been high on the agenda among ANY
theosophical writers, - agreed ?

d) If for instance all of us should learn - all what theosophy has learnt
us - by the help of the Heremes Fragments and Tablets - where will we all
have been today ?
The teachigns has to be adapted to time place and people.
The Teacher is a pupil and the pupil is a Teacher.
If the pupil don't want a Teacher - the pupil is free to do so.
But how much will the pupil then learn ?
Try "A curriculum of a School"
http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/skole_1.htm

The teaching has to be adapted to the students and their level of
consciousness and
their individual background and character. Those on your level learns more
easy by
other kinds of communication. --- Sometimes patience is important.

Did this help Leon ?

2. Theosophical Organisations and their mode of operating:

The Masters taught you to use the 7 keys and avoid the dead-letter
teachings.
There will come a new teaching for sure. And there already has arrived
new teachings. Neither Blavatsky was agaisnt such a view quite on the
contrary !
http://theos-talk.com/archives/200308/tt00117.html (Try this on
unexplored teachings !!!)

The need for --- renewal or reformulations of theosophy --- araises when you
understand the below remarks on what happened when
Blavatsky "died" and perhaps also a few other theosophists - i.e. the
Masters.
The below is an excerpt from a longer article and are related to
Theosophical Organisations and their mode of operating.
I included it so that you and others might learn and understand:

"After the disappearance from the field of a teacher of Wisdom, the
followers will divide themselves into groups, in accordance with their
strength and weaknesses. Some will assume control of others. They may be
good or bad, and this will be shown by their reaction to - the second
teacher - when he/she arrives.
If they realise he/she is their teacher, then they have merely been
developing themselves and can mature. But if they have become atrophied,
they will be too blind to recognize the Spirituality of the very teacher,
for which appearance they have been prepared. They may attach themselves,in
default, to a different group. (And this groups existence is maybe no
coincidence.) Again well and good : providing they return to the mainstream
of teaching when it is offered to them again. This is the test of whether
they have overcome the lower self. They will realise, if they are
sufficiently developed, that the person who appears to be 'second' teacher
is in reality - the first in importance.
Life is reversed for the undeveloped man (the newcomer), and he/she will
behave in accordance with this. The first teacher does not make life easier,
in most cases, for the generality of disciples. He/She will teach them
things, which are only of use when the second teacher arrives and reality
falls into place. The object of this is twofold. In the first place, certain
valuable thoughts have been given to the disciples. In the second, they are
tested by the means of these ideas. Just as our western psychologists give
odd-shaped pieces of wood to people, to see how they put them together,
teachers of Wisdom will give odd-pieces of material of - mental kind - to
his/her followers. - If they try to fit these together however, and to make
a pattern in his/hers - absences, - they are becoming 'fossilised'. Because,
the Wisdom tradition has to show that the object of mankind is not to
construct idols, but to follow a supreme pattern, which is learnt piece by
piece.

Quite obviously the semi-blind among the people, during their
'waiting-period', will try to work out their own interpretation. They may,
as have been done in the past, write books to explain what they have
learned. This is the danger-point, because when a man/woman is accepted as,
say, a philosopher (of wisdom) because she/he has written a book explaining
a philosophy, he/she will not readily accept, that she/he only have been
'fumbling'. He/She has quite possibly become a prisoner of his/hers lower
self. The self-conceit of the man/woman is now bound up with his/hers
'creation', the book or the method, which he/she has used to organise the
fragments, which he/she has. He/she is probably or possibly lost - for the
cause.
In order to break through this shell of accretions and fossilisations,
the - second teacher - will tend to act in a different, perhaps in a certain
dramatically different manner, from the original one. This could happen, to
break the 'idols', which have been formed out of the thoughts, which were
originally given.
So very important: The use of ideas is to shape a man or woman, not to
support a system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in
which the Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of
ideas and movements. This seems important to understand and know about.

When a system of teaching of wisdom is in a period of fallowness, because
the one who propagated it is dead, then there comes a period of stagnation.
This period can last between 10 years, 15 years or more. In the time, which
passes, the group of people who is affected by the system are sieved by
natural means. Some wander away. Others carry on automatically not really
knowing, what they are doing. They are now 'frozen', though they do not know
they are.
The blind may try to lead the blinder. This takes the form of assumption of
authority by those who were given some sort of authority in the original
mandate. These are the people in the most dangerous position, because the
longer they remain 'orphaned' the more strongly their lower self (or the
three lower bodies) asserts it self.
Others may modify the teachings in a learned and personal way. Some
certainly fall a prey to cults, which have come into being in order to serve
them. The people who joins these are at great pains to explain why they
consider, that they represent the same kind of teaching - and this is
important. It is important, because it shows the Theosophist or the real
spiritually minded, very clearly, that the people who try to explain - are
in fact troubled by conscience. Somewhere inside them, they know, that they
are identifying themselves with an imitation, or a second-best. But they are
supported by their lower bodies or lower personality, - and this is too
strong for them.
Those can be helped by being lead to think in new thinking-patterns and
systems. It is via the conscience, that one finds the path forward, -
thereby will be able to remove the limitations of the lower personality.

Imagine a group of people shipwrecked. They think there is no hope of
rescue. They find a raft, and are glad. After a time more people come along
in a big boat. But the first people will not leave the raft, because they
have become used to it. They may have convinced themselves, that it is
actually a boat. (So it is to some philosophical or religious people today.)
The points at which the mystical traditions, which are still alive, are in
contact with each other cannot really be explained by the means of books.
And yet people continue to write books showing how they have found this and
that point of resemblance.
The truth can only be found by actual experience, - and easier by awareness
on such aspect as I have touch upon.

To sink ecstasy in Wisdom is better than to sink Wisdom in ecstasy. The
Wisdom Tradition teaches by several different systems, and not only by
one, - one book or teen books, BUT also by thousands and thousands of
books - and the dogmatic ones doesn't want to listen."


--- Do you disagree on this view Leon ?

3. What is it that makes you call me and Dennis "pseudo theosophists" ?
Please explain !

I have never tried to turn theosophy in to an organized religion or a
political party. What makes you think so ?
The above view on Theosophical Organisations and their mode of Operating
should at least have made that clear to you.

4. There we have it again. Your remark in the below: "Dallas knows."
So HE is the - new - Messenger ?
Please - get real Leon.

5. I am not up to massaging my ego. I am not engaged in any negative
protest and in any negative arguments with anybody. I am saying that I am
determined to help us to be men and women, - and not animals.
I am determined to help all the others - so we are allowed to be people.
Because some of us are saying that we are God's children.
And that we don't have to live like we are forced to live.
We don't have to live in the past !

6. In a recent email of mine where I mentioned some teachers of different
kinds - I did this
so that we may understand that - NEW - teacher do araise. Some are good,
some are bad
and some are not the known by others. But the fact is, that new teacher
araise -
and some of them are doing a better spiritual job than any - "emailing
Theosophists" are doing
including Dallas and Leon etc...

7. Let me try again to explain this issue using some other words.

Wisdom is timeless. Agreed ?
Wisdom teachings are not. Agreed ?
Then I ask: When is it necessary to change and renew the teachings ?
Was it important already in 1975 ?
Is it important now ?
If not why not ?
Are you contradicting yourselves - saying that we should listen to
Blavatsky,
but NOT listen to her when she talks about the year 1975 ?


Please...I do care...
I have done my best, and that is all we can do.


from
M. Sufilight with peace and love...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <leonmaurer@aol.com>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World RE:: Physical Phenomena at a Seance (3 of 3)


>
> In a message dated 12/02/03 10:38:48 PM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk
writes:
>
> >Hallo all of you,
> >
> >My views are:
> >
> >A very good picture Dennis.
> >
> >I agree with you on that.
> >
> >Does any theosophical (- speaking in broad terms -) Master or book
> >tells us - by expanding upon it - anything about New Age organisations
> >and cults, brainwashing and what role the massmedias has today ?
>
> Why would they have to? Can't you find all that out for yourself? Didn't
> theosophy teach you anything about self reliance, discrimination, and wise
> judgement?
>
> The old "Masters" taught us pure and unadulterated theosophy. Their job
is
> done. The rest is up to us. The new teachings have already come through
our
> own "Master within" (to those have ears to hear and eyes to see). There
are no
> "new theosophical messengers" to come, other than that.
>
> The fact is; The "Theosophical Movement" is in its last sub cycle.
Theosophy
> has either taught us to take it on from here or it hasn't. Judging from
> these last correspondences, neither you nor Dennis (along with all the
other
> followers of "pseudo theosophists" who have tried to turn theosophy into
an
> organized religion or political moment) have gotten it yet.
>
> But Dallas knows. Why don't we listen to him (and through him, HPB and
WQJ
> -- the last "living" and reliable messengers of the Masters) -- insteadof
> wallowiing in our own ignorance and relying on spurious contemporary
"gurus" -- 
> who have nothing new to say (other than massaging their own egos and those
of
> their blind and gullible followers who are hungry for new "psychic powers"
and
> who need charismatic "leaders" to hold them by the hand and show them the
way)?
>
>
> As HPB said, what goes on in the surrounding world of religion, politics
and
> science is of no import... Since, none of it is based on fundamental
> theosophical principles -- that haven't changed since the ancient Masters
revealed them
> to us. So, why talk about such temporary activities of ignorant people
and
> waste our time? ... That could be much better spent on studying pure
theosophy
> -- while looking within and finding out how we can apply those fundamental
> metaphysical truths and their "scientific," "philosophical" and
"psychological"
> correlation's, for ourselves -- "So as to be better able to help and teach
> others."
>
> Isn't it a fact that "Theosophy is as theosophy does"?
> See: http://theos-talk.com/archives/200005/tt00091.html
>
> What more is there to say?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Leonardo
>
> ^
> / O \
> /_ _\
> ||| U ||| (Omni knows... Do you?)
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>
> From: "Dennis Kier" <dennw3k@earthlink.net>
>
> To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 2:51 AM
>
> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE:: Physical Phenomena at a Seance (3 of 3)
>
>
>
> > Yes, Theosophy of 100 years ago is a good base. However, we are making
>
> > many discoveries in science, and psychology, and other fields that HPB
>
> > wasn't aware of, and expanding our knowledge of how things work.
>
> >
>
> > We have tools now to investigate that were not around even 20 years
>
> > ago. We should use them. Science and the world didn't stop the moment
>
> > HPB stopped writing.
>
> >
>
> > And, evidently, the Masters have not been communicating the secrets of
>
> > the Universe since she died, or even in your case, when Mr. Judge
>
> > died.
>
> >
>
> > There is room in the world for new knowledge and more detailed
>
> > knowledge.
>
> >
>
> > Since the Masters are not there to spoon feed us the knowledge of the
>
> > Universe, we should use our tools, and our minds to try to evolve
>
> > further, just as evidently they did.
>
> >
>
> > The world didn't end in 1891.
>
> >
>
> > Dennis
>
> >
>
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>
> > From: "Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@earthlink.net>
>
> > To: "AA-BN--Study" <study@blavatsky.net>
>
> > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 4:08 AM
>
> > Subject: Theos-World RE:: Physical Phenomena at a Seance (3 of 3)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > Monday, December 01, 2003
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Dear Denis:
>
> > >
>
> > > Consider what THEOSOPHY has to offer on this subject. Is has a wide
>
> > and
>
> > > deep coverage.
>
> > >
>
> > > Best washes,
>
> > >
>
> > > Dallas
>
> > >
>
> > > ================================
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > PSYCHIC LAWS, FORCES, AND PHENOMENA
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > WHAT IS THE "PSYCHIC ?"
>
> > >
>
> > > The field of psychic forces, phenomena, and dynamics is a vast one.
>
> > Such
>
> > > phenomena are seen and the forces exhibited every day in all lands,
>
> > but
>
> > > until a few years ago very little attention was given to them by
>
> > > scientific persons, while a great deal of ridicule was heaped upon
>
> > those
>
> > > who related the occurrences or averred belief in the psychic nature.
>
> > A
>
> > > cult sprang up in the United States some years ago calling itself
>
> > quite
>
> > > wrongly "spiritualism," but having a great opportunity it neglected
>
> > it
>
> > > and fell into mere wonder-seeking without the slightest shadow of a
>
> > > philosophy. It has accomplished but little in the way of progress
>
> > except
>
> > > a record of many undigested. But other Western investigators of the
>
> > > accepted schools have not done much better, and the result is that
>
> > there
>
> > > is no Western Psychology worthy of the name.
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


   

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