Theos-Talk Archives (July 2003 Message tt00303)

Tuesday, July 29, 2003


Re: Free will


Dear Larry:

You say:


LK
“Let's begin once again with an example from the world as we know
it.

====================

DTB If we speak of the “world as we know it” it implies to
me that there is another world (or several?) we sense but perhaps
do not know in detail. Yet something in us does. Hence in
Theosophy these having been discovered to exist, have been
defined, and consequently you have the teachings about the 7
principles in Man and their correspondences in Nature (Universe).
[ S D I 157, II 596 ]
===================

LK
There are two individuals, the one an alcoholic, and the other
free from that affliction. Each is offered a drink. The
alcoholic, encumbered as he is with his dependency, must exercise
a tremendous amount of will to turn down the offer, if indeed he
can at all. The other fellow has no problem "taking it or leaving
it." Who is more free? How much free will does the alcoholic
have? Is it gone or simply blocked?

=========================================

DTB Theosophy (as I understand it) would say that bondage or
freedom from an obsession is the result of continued discipline
adopted and practised in many earlier lives. In this life it
appears as an asset we don’t have to re-develop.

An alcoholic usually knows at some stage that he has a problem,
How and why ? Where does such a knowledge inhere? Is it an
intuition? Alcohol is a drug, and dangerous. So why play with
it?

In this case you offer, the person obsessed with the desire to
drink alcohol (and thereby to dull their mental perception of
this danger), is perhaps part way, in the process of developing
such a control.

The decision to do anything different is always an exercise of
FREE-WILL. What else ?

Do you really think that there is, on any human, an imposition by
some outside force of either good or bad inclinations? Is that
reasonable? How were he or she picked? It might be so under the
irrational dogmas of certain credal religions, devised by priests
for the control of their “flock.” But does that make it TRUE?

How is such an individual selected, and why?

Is a truth the same for all times, for all people, and in all
circumstances? Or does it waver and wander hither and there at
the whim of some super Being ? If so why take the trouble?

We either have a universal LAW (for all things and circumstances
and for all times past, present and future) or a chaos. Which ?
It can’t be 50 / 50.

How does “common sense” suggest?

Multiply your suggested “case” by injecting similar cases
simultaneously around our little Earth, not to mention the
Universe, what must the super Being be doing ?

Is any one of us so important to any one but themselves ? Or are
we “playthings of the inscrutable?

=============================================

LK
Now compare any of ourselves with one of our more advanced, more
evolved brethren. Some still like to call them the "gods," but
Theosophy offers a variety of names for these individuals,
depending on their level of advancement.

==============================

DTB As I understand it the names given are not as important
as the central idea that every one is an immortal MONAD, and so
are WE, in our innermost nature [ATMA-BUDDHI].

What They have done is BY USING FREE WILL, mastered all their
personal principles (consisting of congeries of “Monads of lesser
experience”) and transformed them into their full advanced
refinement.

They are indeed our ELDER BROTHERS. The call themselves the
“servants” of Humanity. In so doing, They say that: the Karma
of those Monads has to be worked out and adjusted to a full
harmony with SPIRITUAL NATURE. [see FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY
Article 1, THE ELIXIR OF LIFE.]

As I understand it, every human being is in the process of doing
the same. They [the Masters] stand as examples for us, of the
tremendous advances we can make, if we WILL. All the powers are
latent but resident WITHIN us. In the meantime we study, test,
respect, honor and obey their sage advice. It seems we would be
foolish to do otherwise.

Note: that Theosophical advice is always impersonal, universal,
compassionate, wise and offers us an honest and integrated view
of Nature, and its cooperative life-sustaining work, which,
otherwise we could not easily secure. It answers the WHY of all
things.

It is the “GOOD LAW” that They preach. And with it, is that
philosophy and science that leads to freedom of understanding
without any coercion. They do not teach us how to shirk our
responsibilities, or sneak out from under the burden of our
self-made and self-chosen Karma, when we find we have blundered.

They show that results, good or bad, are inevitable -- and we
ought to be wise enough to meet and bear them without resentment
or fear. [They offer no course in power-acquisition that will
enable any one to avoid, by a cowardly escape, their conjoined
and cooperative responsibilities in this universe, one that we
have so far contributed to for many past lives. (They declare
that such a course is impossible, and it doesn’t exist.) ]

They declare that the Law of Karma, which is universal justice
and mercy, requires we make all necessary adjustments ourselves,
to meet good or evil. If we have made victims in the past we are
doomed to make due reparations to them and, assist them in the
future. Similarly, if we have assisted others, they will be
helping us. This is the real world as we ought to know it]

Is this credulity and blind belief? I think not.

It is very hard discipline -- hence, unpopular.


===========================

LK
Now each of us is born with the burden of whatever Karma we
merit, the propensities (skandhas) that attach to us, as well as
the fact that we have to deal with our "passions and desires"
while struggling to make contact with our higher selves.

The more advanced individual may be at a level where some of this
is of a lessened effect or even non-existent, depending on
exactly which level of being we are speaking of. Does this mean
they no longer possess free will, or is it that they are even
more able to exercise that will in comparison to those of us
still encumbered as we are dealing more with the lower self? “


==================================
DTB I have learned from Theosophy that we alone made our own
KARMA. Good and bad.

Our present situation is: we (as immortal Egos, awake and aware)
have to deal directly with our “lower passional Self.” It is ours
and we created it. WE ARE THE HIGHER SELF.. We do not have to
seek it. We are it. We are incarnated in “matter” with the
purpose of assisting all the “Monads of lesser experience” to
progress.

We could express it as: we are seeking through all experience
for the Cause and the LAWS.

Those both exist. But the Laws, when discovered, are found to be
uniformly, those of BROTHERHOOD. They are harmonies of
cooperation and service to other beings who are also brother
IMMORTALS -- “Monads, such as we are.” So in effect, we are
serving ourselves also.

We have to acquire the view that We (the spiritual SELF -- ATMA)
IS IN FACT THE WHOLE OF nature.

We are the Universe.

This is shocking. But it is also true, as we are, along with it
and everything else, Immortal Pilgrims.

Is this servitude a burden? It seems so to the “lower passional
Self.” To the HIGHER SELF, it is the universal state. The
ALL-HARMONY. The ALL-LIFE. The ALL-BEING. The ONE.

Now our task is to show the “lower passional Self” the value of
the great moral laws that encompass the Universe and support its
present existence. It is also a part of this WHOLE. It has to
learn how to live in it.

It means in effect, the entire use of our own FREE WILL --
directed voluntarily -- to live to benefit others. One need
only read carefully the first 100 pages of the MAHATMA LETTERS to
assure ourselves of these facts.

Best wishes,

Dallas

=================================


-----Original Message-----
From: larry kolts [mailto:stamptrotter@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:43 AM
To:
Subject: [bn-study] free will

Thanks for all the "welcome backs."

Here's my reflections on this free will discussion after a
weekend of pondering.

Let's begin once again with an example from the world as we know
it.

There are two individuals, the one an alcoholic, and the other
free from that affliction. Each is offered a drink. The
alcoholic, encumbered as he is with his dependency, must exercize
a tremendous amount of will to turn down the offer, if indeed he
can at all. The other fellow has no poblem "taking it or leaving
it." Who is more free? How much free will does the alcoholic
have? Is it gone or simply blocked?

Now compare any of ourselves with one of our more advanced, more
evolved brethren. Some still like to call them the "gods," but
Theosophy offers a variety of names for these individuals,
depending on their level of advancement. Now each of us is born
with the burden of whatever Karma we merit, the propensities
(skandhas) that attach to us, as well as the fact that we have to
deal with our "passions and desires" while struggling to make
contact with our higher selves.

The more advanced individual may be at a level where some of this
is of a lessened effect or even non-existent, depending on
exactly which level of being we are speaking of. Does this mean
they no longer possess free will, or is it that they are even
more able to exercize that will in comparison to those of us
still encumbered as we are dealing more with the lower self?
CUT


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]