Theos-Talk Archives (June 2003 Message tt00246)

Wr. Thnks. Yu mntnd tht yu wld tll mr whn th lst mmbrshp rchd 200. 's tht
200 ndvdl ppl r 200 dffrnt cmptr nms? Mny ppl n ths lsts xprss mltpl
prsnltys thrgh prtndng 2b svrl dffrnt prsnltys.

sncrly, :)

Bll
----- Original Message -----
From: "wry" <wry1111@earthlink.net>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Key Material


> Hi Bill. Grp is just the consonant base of grip, being grip without the
> vowel. This is an interesting and very fruitful way to examine a word.
> Speaking of fruit, grape, a profound symbol in some spiritual systems, has
> the same consonant base as grape, just as vine has the same base as vein.
> One reason I have referred to grip (grp) in this way is to get people
> accustomed to the idea of different kinds and qualities of materiality. If
> this can be accomplished, which I believe it easily can, under favorable
> circumstances, then it might be possible to effect a certain kind of
> transmission on email groups that previously could only been given when
> people are physically present to each other. In this way we may be able to
> receive a taste of something "out of this world" and connect it to this
> world in such a way that a new dimension can open up for us.
>
> In my opinion, understanding how to use the simple tool of the consonant
> base to look at words is the key to the language of the ancients. One
would
> not think it could be possible to discover the language of the ancients by
> studying the English language, for example, or any Indo-European language
or
> even perhaps certain other languages, but nothing is further from the
truth.
> I have much to say on this interesting and exciting subject .I said I
would
> begin when this list reached two hundred, but I am now hesitating.
> Theos-talk has changed in many ways in the last year plus that I have been
> on here, and I see much potential here, but, being an idiot, I think I
> idealized the situation, as I am prone to do this.
>
> Also, everyone, I am the complete emergence of Morton from his cocoon. I
am
> not sure what kind of moth he going to be, but, quite honestly, this is a
> phenomena I have never seen the likes of, and I will need to wait and see
> how things unfold before I proceed any further, as I will have to make
> compensations for this not necessarily unfavorable, but very bizarre,
> development, and factor this into my future activity. By the way, Morton,
I
> will respond to your message as soon as I get a chance. Also, when this
list
> reaches two hundred I will leave a preliminary message on the language of
> the ancients, and at least put out a bibliography for those who want to
> begin to delve into word roots. In the meantime, ".....see that thou hurt
> not the oil and the wine." Sincerely, Wry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Meredith" <bill_meredith@earthlink.net>
> To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 1:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Key Material
>
>
> > hi wry. often you use the term "grip" and then follow it with (grp).
is
> > "grp" an acronym for something (if so, what) or is it just grip without
> the
> > "i"?
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > bill
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "wry" <wry1111@earthlink.net>
> > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 1:52 PM
> > Subject: Theos-World Key Material
> >
> >
> > > Hi Morton and Everyone. Here is my message with further comments I
hope
> > > everyone will read this. This is also in response to your questions in
> > 12329
> > > which I will be referring to as I write this. I had trouble finding my
> > > message because I never received it from Yahoo, having erased it when
I
> > > erased my web mail and then the format of your messages confused me
even
> > > further.
> > >
> > > As everyone on here should know by now, I have an interest in
eventually
> > > doing some kind of learning project on the internet that will effect
the
> > > trends and tendencies of broader humanity in some way that would be
> > > extremely beneficial. I have spoken about this several times. Re this
> > > subject, your own messages, especially recently, have been extremely
> > > interesting and helpful. It is very difficult to verbally convey a
sense
> > of
> > > different physical qualitiy re the density or subtlety of various
> material
> > > states a human being can experience, especially since most people have
> not
> > > been trained to notice anything like this, usually being too
identified
> > with
> > > whatever is going on. When I use the word, "grip." as people already
> know,
> > > this is in relationship to certain material effects re sensation that
> are
> > > created as bio-chemical responses of certain people to certain
material
> > that
> > > serve as a fixative, connecting in a certain way to other responses in
> > these
> > > same people. When people have a certain kind and quality of responses
> that
> > > are aligned by degree of density and subtlty, each to each, this can
> > create
> > > a sort of active information system (read Bohm and Hiley) where
material
> > > states of different individuals could potentially combine to create a
> > group
> > > of people functioning as a unit in certain sutle ways that are
> > unconscious,
> > > but LESS unconscious than previously, certain layers of cruder density
> > > having been peeled off, like skin off an onion, or something to that
> > effect.
> > > I do not care to go into this is any more detail, but one could in the
> > > future bear my interest in this subject in mind when reading any of my
> > > material. See below. I will put++++++++after my new comments.
> > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@a...>
> > > > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 11:18 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Conditioning and other artificial
arts...part
> 3
> > > of
> > > > 3 (Wry on Blavatsky-part thirteen)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Wry and all of you,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your answer.
> > > > > The emails on this list Theos-Talk have a tendency to present
> certain
> > > > > socalled 'facts' randomly. And sometimes the 'facts' are more
BELIEF
> > > than
> > > > > actual 'facts' or 'knowledge'.
> > > > > Giants may exist. But do we need Giant idiots ?
> > >
> > > Wry++++++This message starts out very well, indeed, with the above,
but
> > > below, you start to deflect. You ARE equating the people talking
aboput
> > > giants with people of conventional religion. Conventional religion
> > actually
> > > has nothing to do with this subject, as what you are saying applies to
> > > people in general.
> > > > >
> > > > > People who are conventionally religious are usually admires of
> > > > > things which their associative mentality tells them are 'holy' or
> > > > > 'good' or 'devotional'. They obtain emotional satisfactions from
> > > > > hearing the familiar or from seeing people do things which have
> > > > > been established as devout.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Wry: Morton, I appeciate you giving a "sufi" perspective out here. I
> am
> > a
> > > > sufi myself, but we may not know what a "sufi" is. In any case, we
no
> > not
> > > > want there to be a flood, but we also would like to be able to find
> > water
> > > in
> > > > a desert. .
> > > >
> > > > > Because this has become their source
> > > > > of personal pleasure, they fail to notice that it is often of no
> other
> > > > > value whatever. Hence such people delight in seeing others at
> > > > > prayer, or at producing 'spiritual' reactions which they have
> > > > > been taught to denote something higher than they really do. In the
> > > > > process, really spiritual sensations are lost. The cruder emotion
> has
> > > > > driven them out.
> > >
> > > Wry++++++++It became immediately obvious from reading your email that
> you
> > do
> > > not understand the difference between certain functions such as
> sensation
> > > and feeling (a common error in many people), are confused about the
> > > difference between knowledge and being, do not understand the
> difference
> > > between a reaction and being conscious and moreover were lost in
> thought,
> > > having an ongoing reactive process while writing this message. My aim
> was
> > to
> > > bring things back to earth, and you know what? I can perceive no real
> > > difference between your message and the messages of the people who
were
> > > talking about giants (the messages about giants were more grounded and
> > well
> > > designed than your own) except that your messages were more useful to
me
> > in
> > > getting certain points on my own agenda across. Actually, from my
> > > perspective and from the perspective on anyone wanting to ride my coat
> > tails
> > > up a spiral, this could be a big difference.
> > > You have, in my opinion, picked up a few ideas which you do not really
> > > understand and are putting them together in a way which is
incongruent,
> > > thereby creating further disorder. See more comments below.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Wry: This is true in one sense, but in another it is not. Please
read
> > what
> > > I
> > > > have just written to Mauri. When people pray it is not like what you
> > seem
> > > to
> > > > be talking about here, which again appears to me to be a form of
> > > > intellectualizing. Praying or any kind of conventional spirituality,
> > when
> > > > practiced by a sincere person, is the beginning of making a bridge.
> > Maybe
> > > > this bridge will not be completed (in this "lifetime"), but it is
the
> > > > beginning of merit, and this effort may very well support the making
> of
> > a
> > > > real bridge in someone. I personbally have had my life greatly
> affected
> > by
> > > > conventional Roman Catholics and other convention Christians, for
> > example.
> > > > who took their religions very seriously, and I do not believe I
would
> be
> > > > alive today but for the selfless efforts of some of these ordinary
> > people.
> > > > When you speak of "really spiritual sensations," this, to me, is
> > > gibberish.
> > > > How do you expect people to relate to this material? Saying this and
> > > > expecting people to understand it is the same as having a belief.
> Also,
> > it
> > > > is not tailored to fit the occasion. Why? In my opinion, because
> > something
> > > > ordinary in yourself is attracted to the images associated with
these
> > > words
> > > > and ideas, which I question are even your own.
> > >
> > >
> > > Wry++++++++To explain the above comments, and this is important.
> > Everything
> > > is now. This means all of these real spiritual qualities you are
talking
> > > about are potentially available to us now. The possibility to
experience
> > > this is within these very people who are talking about giants. It is
not
> > > about talking about giants or not talking about giants, but how and
when
> > to
> > > talk about giants. When I spoke about conventional Roman Catholics and
> > > others helping me, I was actually referring to the people who are
> talking
> > > about giants. It is all the same. The dove brings the olive branch
from
> > the
> > > land,. He does not find it floating the atmosphere. No real sufi
(except
> a
> > > most extraordinary one) would have the patience for the kind of
> > conversation
> > > you are trying to have. You are, in my opinion, an example of people
> > > confusing sensation for what is really spiritual and then clinging to
> it.
> > > See below.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hence the tale of the parrot and the Theosophist.
> > > > > There was once as Theosophists who went into a pet shop and aksed
if
> > > > > they had anything that might interest him.
> > > > > The lady who worked there produced a parot.
> > > > > 'This is sure to please you,' she said. 'If you pull this leg on
the
> > > > > bird, he says a prayer, and if you pull the other one, it will
sing
> > the
> > > > > Great Invocation.'
> > > > > The Theosophist was delighted, and felt a sense of holy joy
> suffusing
> > > > > him at such a familiary devout observance.
> > > > > 'And,' he beamed, 'what will happen if I pull both its legs at
> > > > > once ?'
> > > > > The parot shouted out, 'I'll fall on my fac you Idiot!'
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > BELIEF is certainly not the same as knowledge. This is a fact !
> > > > > You may of course believe what you want, and that is a fact
> > > > too.
> > > >
> > > > Wry: It is a fact, but this cannot be told, only shown. How is this
> > done?
> > > By
> > > > literally, physically, setting up circumstances where "belief" or
even
> > > > genuine faith, which is something else, is contrasted to knowledge,
or
> > > maybe
> > > > where "belief" is contrasted to real faith. Also, there are
different
> > > kinds
> > > > and qualities of knowledge. When genuine faith creates a living
> bridge,
> > > > everything within a person is affected. This leads to a state and
> > quality
> > > of
> > > > existence which could be called "being". In order for this being to
> > > > manifest, cognisance of unpleasant details of physical reality need
to
> > be
> > > > factored into it in a certain way. This means I can never forget the
> > true
> > > > situation of the world, which is not a pretty one, and then I create
a
> > > > bridge within myself, that connects not just certain fragmented
> aspects
> > of
> > > > myself, but also connects me to everyone. How to do this is a form
of
> > > > knowledge. Living in this way, manifesting substantially from this
> kind
> > of
> > > > bridge, could be called "being". When these two qualities are
> connected
> > in
> > > a
> > > > certain way, there is self realization. But this is for the future.
> > First,
> > > > in my opinion, each of us needs to study ourselves in manifestation.
> If
> > > the
> > > > conditioned mind makes this study, certain details will be left out.
> And
> > > so
> > > > a method that takes into account this inherent flaw needs to be
> brought
> > > into
> > > > the picture. It is as simple as salt. Sincerely, Wry
> > >
> > > Wry++++++++In the above, which is actually very relevant, I am
speaking
> > > about making a bridge on here, right now, as the sense of the
importance
> > of
> > > doing this in the now is something you seem to be lacking. When we
make
> > this
> > > kind of bridge, people will no longer be talking about irrelevancies,
> but
> > > about the requirements of making the bridge. The first step is giving
a
> > > different kind and quality of material, right here, right now, so
people
> > > will have a contrast. This creates "grip" (grp), by which a transition
> can
> > > be made, from the flood of talking about giants to the potential land
of
> > > receiving the olive branch, a symbol from the dove But I do not like
to
> > > continue to make messages on this subject as talking in this way is
not
> > the
> > > same as doing it. .I know my messages to you may seem harsh, but you
are
> > one
> > > of my favorite people on this forum, and you have given me an
> opportunity
> > to
> > > make some important (to me at least) messages, so for this I am
> grateful.
> > > Sincerely, Wry
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Feel free to comment or do your best...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > from
> > > > > M. Sufilight with peace and love...and his friends Mulla
Nashruddin
> > and
> > > > > Khizr...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > from
> > > > > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "wry" <wry1111@e...>
> > > > > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 7:15 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Conditioning and other artificial
> arts...part
> > 3
> > > > of
> > > > > 3 (Wry on Blavatsky-part thirteen)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi. Here are some comments on your message.: It is probably best
> to
> > > try
> > > > to
> > > > > > use language in as simple a way as possible, taking into account
> the
> > > aim
> > > > > of
> > > > > > ones communication and how to convey the understanding in a way
> that
> > > > > people
> > > > > > can receive it. This means that shocks need to be applied at
> certain
> > > > > > juncture points. If a person does not have much of an aim and/or
> > does
> > > > not
> > > > > > understand what is a shock or a juncture point, then, what and
> where
> > > is
> > > > > the
> > > > > > point? Without a more specific approach, more specific result
will
> > not
> > > > be
> > > > > > achieved. More comments below.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@a...>
> > > > > > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 10:35 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Theos-World Conditioning and other artificial
arts...part
> 3
> > > of
> > > > 3
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi all of you,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The following will almost only
> > > > > > > interest the more earnest students of Theosophy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Conditioning
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Part 3 of 3:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The true Theosophists contention is that, traditionally, there
> was
> > a
> > > > > > clear-cut
> > > > > > > method, widely if not universally applied by 'those who know'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wry: I will not comment on this except to say that I have never
> seen
> > > any
> > > > > > kind of methodical approach to anything in the year plus I have
> been
> > > on
> > > > > > theosophy lists. There is a lot of disorganization and
confusion,
> > plus
> > > > > there
> > > > > > is an authoritarian element which most people seem willing to
> > accept,
> > > > and
> > > > > > this is disturbing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > This involved (1) indoctrination of the people (or some of
them)
> > > > > > > to remove superseded ideas which had begun to operate as
> > > > > > > blinkers;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wry: This is an interesting idea. Though I do not believe that
> ideas
> > > can
> > > > > be
> > > > > > removed by indoctrination, people can be mesmerized and brought
> into
> > > > > > certain states by the written word. I have studied this quite
> > deeply.
> > > > > People
> > > > > > do not understand the science of mesmerism and how very
> > sophisticated
> > > > > > people can easily and deliberately apply its principles. I have
> > > referred
> > > > > to
> > > > > > this subject in relationship to theosophy on a few occasions.
One
> > big
> > > > > > problem, even a downfall of certain approaches, is that people
> > cannot
> > > be
> > > > > > mesmerized to be less mesmerized. It is easy to bring people
into
> a
> > > > deeper
> > > > > > state, but not so easy to bring them out of it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >(2) removal of the indoctrination to restore flexibility
> > > > > > > of viewpoint and consequent enlightenment; and then (3)
> > > > > > > application of stimuli to help make this enlightenment
effective
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ordinary world.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wry: To me, the above is a pipe dream.The written word cannot do
> all
> > > of
> > > > > > this, unless material is designed in a deliberate form and
> sequence
> > so
> > > > as
> > > > > to
> > > > > > subsequently relieve previous impressions by a different kind of
> > > > > attention.
> > > > > > Everything would need to be set up in a certain way, plus the
> model
> > > > would
> > > > > > need to be self cleansing. Though this is technically possible,
it
> > has
> > > > not
> > > > > > been done in the writings of theosophy. Many people end up very
> > naive
> > > > and
> > > > > > mixed up and this confusion factors back in. At least you are
> making
> > > an
> > > > > > attempt to look at this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are fairly close parallels in the mundane educational
> > > > > > > process. if, for example, everyone believed firmly in alchemy.
> The
> > > > > > > fixation on the alchemical goal would have to be weakened in
> > > > > > > certain people before they could profit from chemistry.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wry: This is true and I believe this is what Madame Blavatsky
> > > attempted
> > > > to
> > > > > > do. The results were very mixed. This is what happens when
people
> > > > > experiment
> > > > > > and it is not necessarily bad or good, but, as I have pointed
out,
> > > > > > adjustment need to be made. Every needs to be presented in a way
> > that
> > > is
> > > > > > time-appropriate. This is a KEY point.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > This perception of conditioning end flexibility, can be used
to
> > > > > > > examine virtually every human system of thought or action in
> > > > > > > the spiritual field. indeed, until it can be applied by
someone
> it
> > > is
> > > > > > > not possible to hold a meaningful discussion with him or her.
> > > > > > > Nowadays, few people contest the importace of knowing
> > > > > > > about conditioning in order to examine belief-systems. Why,
> > > > > > > therefore, s it so difficult to communicate with so many
people
> > > > > > > alon these lines? the answer is very simple. We are at a stage
> in
> > > > > > > understanding human behavior analogous to that which obtained
> > > > > > > when people began to try to talk of chemistry to those
> > > > > > > who were fixated upon the hope of untold wealth (or,
sometimes,
> > > > > > > spiritual enlightenment) through alchemy. Like the alchemist
> > > > > > > or those or those who want easy riches, people want dramatic
> > > > > > > inputs (emotional stimuli, excitement, reassurance, authority-
> > > > > > > figures and the rest) rather than knowledge.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wry: In my opinion, it is very important to understand that the
> > above
> > > is
> > > > > an
> > > > > > intellectualization and an over analysis. People want a quick
fix
> > > > because
> > > > > it
> > > > > > is easier to let things happen than to be active. An INDIVIDUAL
> > needs
> > > to
> > > > > see
> > > > > > himself in present time, as he is. It is not about other people
> > being
> > > > > > conditioned.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is only when the desire for knowledge and understanding
> > > > > > > becomes as effective as the craving for emotional stimulus
that
> > > > > > > the individual becomes accessible to change, to knowledge, to
> > > > > > > more than a very little understanding.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wry: Many people are hungry for something that is more
essential,
> > but
> > > > > there
> > > > > > is no one to work with these people. It is a true fact and a sad
> > one.
> > > My
> > > > > > special interest is in working with people in their twenties.
Many
> > of
> > > > > these
> > > > > > young people still have questions and a deep search, but it is
> > already
> > > > > > starting to weaken, due to life influences. Most will lose this
in
> > > their
> > > > > > thirties. You will not see certain bright young people with
> > questions
> > > > and
> > > > > a
> > > > > > deep urge to develop to their full potential on a lcertain kind
of
> > > > forum.
> > > > > > They will take one look and leave.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > So learning must be preceded by the capacity to learn.
> > > > > > > THAT, in turn, comes about at least in part by right attitude.
> > > > > > > And THAT, again, is where the would-be learner has to
> > > > > > > exercise effort.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wry: Yes.It is also necessary to attempt to place oneself under
> > > certain
> > > > > > conditions. See below.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ***
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So where are Blavatsky on this ?
> > > > > > > Has Blavatsky ever made any statements like this ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wry: It is not necessary to continue to use Madame Blavatsky as
a
> > > > > reference
> > > > > > point. This is not to say to disregard her work either, but if
you
> > (or
> > > > > > anyone) consider yourself a "theosophist, continue the quest in
> the
> > > most
> > > > > > efficient way possible. The mind gets too dull when it keeps
> looking
> > > > back.
> > > > > > As I have said before, because I am from the same society as
> Madame
> > > > > > Blavatsky, I am both capable and qualified to speak as her
> > > > representative.
> > > > > > But anybody can say anything. I have made this point plain. This
> is
> > > why
> > > > it
> > > > > > is necessary to begin to verify and not just to give it lip
> service,
> > > as
> > > > > > certain hypocrites do. Re your own interesting attempt to
> formulate
> > > > > certain
> > > > > > concepts, if I think human society approaches material in a
> certain
> > > > way,
> > > > > I
> > > > > > need to see this in myself, as I am most likely an example of
this
> > > (and
> > > > > this
> > > > > > means Wry, also) This approach is at the crux of receiving any
> real
> > > > > > results. In any case, I personally speak for MADAME BLAVATSKY
when
> I
> > > say
> > > > > she
> > > > > > would not want immature modern "theosophists" to be handling her
> > > > material
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the way they are doing. It is most saddening. Sincerely, Wry
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Feel free to comment or do your best
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
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