Theos-Talk Archives (June 2003 Message tt00140)

Hi. Here are some comments on your message.: It is probably best to try to
use language in as simple a way as possible, taking into account the aim of
ones communication and how to convey the understanding in a way that people
can receive it. This means that shocks need to be applied at certain
juncture points. If a person does not have much of an aim and/or does not
understand what is a shock or a juncture point, then, what and where is the
point? Without a more specific approach, more specific result will not be
achieved. More comments below.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@adslhome.dk>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Theos-World Conditioning and other artificial arts...part 3 of 3


> Hi all of you,
>
> The following will almost only
> interest the more earnest students of Theosophy.
>
> Conditioning
>
> Part 3 of 3:
>
> The true Theosophists contention is that, traditionally, there was a
clear-cut
> method, widely if not universally applied by 'those who know'.

Wry: I will not comment on this except to say that I have never seen any
kind of methodical approach to anything in the year plus I have been on
theosophy lists. There is a lot of disorganization and confusion, plus there
is an authoritarian element which most people seem willing to accept, and
this is disturbing.

> This involved (1) indoctrination of the people (or some of them)
> to remove superseded ideas which had begun to operate as
> blinkers;

Wry: This is an interesting idea. Though I do not believe that ideas can be
removed by indoctrination, people can be mesmerized and brought into
certain states by the written word. I have studied this quite deeply. People
do not understand the science of mesmerism and how very sophisticated
people can easily and deliberately apply its principles. I have referred to
this subject in relationship to theosophy on a few occasions. One big
problem, even a downfall of certain approaches, is that people cannot be
mesmerized to be less mesmerized. It is easy to bring people into a deeper
state, but not so easy to bring them out of it.

>(2) removal of the indoctrination to restore flexibility
> of viewpoint and consequent enlightenment; and then (3)
> application of stimuli to help make this enlightenment effective in the
> ordinary world.

Wry: To me, the above is a pipe dream.The written word cannot do all of
this, unless material is designed in a deliberate form and sequence so as to
subsequently relieve previous impressions by a different kind of attention.
Everything would need to be set up in a certain way, plus the model would
need to be self cleansing. Though this is technically possible, it has not
been done in the writings of theosophy. Many people end up very naive and
mixed up and this confusion factors back in. At least you are making an
attempt to look at this.

> There are fairly close parallels in the mundane educational
> process. if, for example, everyone believed firmly in alchemy. The
> fixation on the alchemical goal would have to be weakened in
> certain people before they could profit from chemistry.

Wry: This is true and I believe this is what Madame Blavatsky attempted to
do. The results were very mixed. This is what happens when people experiment
and it is not necessarily bad or good, but, as I have pointed out,
adjustment need to be made. Every needs to be presented in a way that is
time-appropriate. This is a KEY point.

> This perception of conditioning end flexibility, can be used to
> examine virtually every human system of thought or action in
> the spiritual field. indeed, until it can be applied by someone it is
> not possible to hold a meaningful discussion with him or her.
> Nowadays, few people contest the importace of knowing
> about conditioning in order to examine belief-systems. Why,
> therefore, s it so difficult to communicate with so many people
> alon these lines? the answer is very simple. We are at a stage in
> understanding human behavior analogous to that which obtained
> when people began to try to talk of chemistry to those
> who were fixated upon the hope of untold wealth (or, sometimes,
> spiritual enlightenment) through alchemy. Like the alchemist
> or those or those who want easy riches, people want dramatic
> inputs (emotional stimuli, excitement, reassurance, authority-
> figures and the rest) rather than knowledge.

Wry: In my opinion, it is very important to understand that the above is an
intellectualization and an over analysis. People want a quick fix because it
is easier to let things happen than to be active. An INDIVIDUAL needs to see
himself in present time, as he is. It is not about other people being
conditioned.

> It is only when the desire for knowledge and understanding
> becomes as effective as the craving for emotional stimulus that
> the individual becomes accessible to change, to knowledge, to
> more than a very little understanding.

Wry: Many people are hungry for something that is more essential, but there
is no one to work with these people. It is a true fact and a sad one. My
special interest is in working with people in their twenties. Many of these
young people still have questions and a deep search, but it is already
starting to weaken, due to life influences. Most will lose this in their
thirties. You will not see certain bright young people with questions and a
deep urge to develop to their full potential on a lcertain kind of forum.
They will take one look and leave.

> So learning must be preceded by the capacity to learn.
> THAT, in turn, comes about at least in part by right attitude.
> And THAT, again, is where the would-be learner has to
> exercise effort.

Wry: Yes.It is also necessary to attempt to place oneself under certain
conditions. See below.
>
>
>
>
>
> ***
>
> So where are Blavatsky on this ?
> Has Blavatsky ever made any statements like this ?

Wry: It is not necessary to continue to use Madame Blavatsky as a reference
point. This is not to say to disregard her work either, but if you (or
anyone) consider yourself a "theosophist, continue the quest in the most
efficient way possible. The mind gets too dull when it keeps looking back.
As I have said before, because I am from the same society as Madame
Blavatsky, I am both capable and qualified to speak as her representative.
But anybody can say anything. I have made this point plain. This is why it
is necessary to begin to verify and not just to give it lip service, as
certain hypocrites do. Re your own interesting attempt to formulate certain
concepts, if I think human society approaches material in a certain way, I
need to see this in myself, as I am most likely an example of this (and this
means Wry, also) This approach is at the crux of receiving any real
results. In any case, I personally speak for MADAME BLAVATSKY when I say she
would not want immature modern "theosophists" to be handling her material in
the way they are doing. It is most saddening. Sincerely, Wry
>
> Feel free to comment or do your best
>
>
>
> from
> M. Sufilight with peace and love...
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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