Theos-Talk Archives (May 2003 Message tt00093)

Saturday, May 10, 2003

Dear Friend:

In my esteem, there is no attempt in Theosophy to stifle
thinking. In any case it is impossible to do so. Each one of us
is quite free.

There are many ways and approaches to study and learning.
"Scholarship" is not a crime, and the refraining from providing
information may be one. The decision is again, as always,
interior to the individual concerned. The recipient decides
whether to accept or not.

We often desire to find out the WHY of things. How to proceed?
Don't we look for prior work? If we find it, ought it not be
consulted, compared thought over and exposed to others for their
evaluation? If we can get several involved in looking, are not
our joint chances of success increased? As I se it, if several
work sincerely together the best results are achieved.

Example: the farmer, using what he has of wisdom, sows his
seeds, and from there it is up to the elements to assist the
seeds to sprout and grow. Karma has of course something to do
with this.

One of our problems is language -- as sometimes the necessary
definitions of analogies are not easily available, or if
available, are not always understood at first reading.

Example: Take H P B's exposition of the THREE FUNDAMENTALS:
GOD -- LAW -- EVOLUTION in The SECRET DOCTRINE [Vol. I pp
13 - 19] -- only 6 pages -- she says that the whole doctrine of
Theosophy is based on a correct understanding of these.

Is it worth trying to understand her ? Is THEOSOPHY useful, or
are we trying to discover, all of us, if it is? No one is
proficient, we are simply, all of us, students.

What displeases one may please another. That is to be discovered
by the one affected.

If it were a question of "opinion" then problems will invariably
arise. If it is a question of data, texts, facts, observations,
law, etc.. already laid down for thousands of years, then at best
one has to study and discover if those clams are correct. It is
for this reason that "quotations" are used. We are all
discoverers -- pioneers. And, through brotherhood we try to
assist each other.

All information offered is, as taken and considered to be of the
best of motives, attempts to assist. Assistance need not always
be accepted. But assistance is for a wide audience and not for
any one in particular.

It might be good to hear from others on this subject.

Everyone is free to use and consider or reject -- what else can
be the case as we are all free-willed.

Theosophy like any science has a fund of data. In our case we
have as proximate source the writings of H P B, and W Q J. But
even if this is my view, I know others will disagree with that.
How else can conferencing take lace?

The real question is " what is the nearest expression to truth
that are impersonal and universal, and which if understood and
used can accelerate our approach to the inner truths that Wisdom
( Buddhi) keeps in store for us. Is it not the embodied mind
that rebels and objects? f so, why? I think this question can
only be answered by ones' self.

Everyone is free to consider and decide, and determine if what is
offered is wrong or delusive. The question is then, what
measuring rod are we using? And what would we recommend? If that
can be made available to all, then the understanding can grow and
be shared.

Best wishes,

Dallas

==========================

-----Original Message-----
From: Morten
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 3:20 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Cross-referencing and the like...

Hi Dallas and all of you,

Here are my views:

1.
Dallas you wrote:
"As we all profit from the work each other does and posts, the
methods used are valuable if they direct us to the basis fro
which Theosophy speaks."

My answer:
Yes. IF and only IF they truely direct us to that mentioned
basis.

2.
Dallas you wrote:
"As I understand it, Theosophy is a definite system of facts and
laws, just like engineering, or mathematics, or astronomy. The
quotations, for me, locate various aspects of that system, to my
mind."

My answer:
"Yes. But, No. Theosophy should'nt be put out as being only like
a system of
facts and laws etc..
There are certainly more to Theosophy than the thoughts coming
from the
various
mental levels can give us.
It is the delevopment of the inner organ (- the heart of wisdom),
on a
'higher' level
than your own, which is important.
The UNENDING crossreferencing and indexing might help the student
and some
who calls
themselves teachers. But is the UNENDING crossreferencing and
indexing what
a
true Theosophist and a initiate would call proper, spiritually
adequate when
talking about place, time, the people involved, the teaching, the
students,
the teacher(s),
the surroundings etc.. ?
I will deeply question that on more than one occasion here at
Theos-Talk
during
its time of existence. Will it not be much more advaisable to the
student to
use
his or her own words instead of this almost extreme exaggartion
in use of
unending crossreferencing and indexing. Is'nt it wasting more
time, than it
is gaining ?
One can of course on one level appreciate the age of the
computers with
their fancy capeabilities to turn any large amount of scriptures
into a
relevant index.
But on the other level - the higher one, - one could question
whehter it
develops the inner organ of spirituality or not ? Maybe it is an
obstacle to
its development ?"


3.
Dallas you wrote:
"I would rather have them than vague speculative waftings of
capricious fancy. I can go to quotations, and the context, and
learn something of what the original writer said. As far as
possible I try to distance myself from "opinions." -- unless they
tally with the original and basic thinking and teachings."

My answer:
"Yes. But WHO is it to say, what really is vague speculative
waftings or NOT
?
Is it not so, that what first meets the eyes in a sentence, not
always
really is what that special sentence is all about ?"



4.
Dallas you wrote:
"I am sorry but I don't get your point."

My answer:
"Yes. I think I can see that by your writing."


5.
Dallas you wrote:
"The referencing is of course individual as to a method. There
are many methods -- all good for the individual who uses them.
Others devise their own, and some like them or not."

My answer:
"Yes. But to develop peoples skills - in writing emails - or -
abstaining
from doing so when it is proper and timely spiritually seen -
with as many aspects taking in to account as possible, - would be
more
advaisable - dont you think ? Of course development sometimes
goes by
one taking one step after the other, and then developing.
Sometimes the
Theosphical
beginner almost screams I want to learn think on a higher level,
but when
offered
to do so, - the beginner really won't develop and refuses to
think - and
becomes a member
of a list like this or another one and starts to sort of teach
others with
the method called -
UNENDING crossreferencing and indexing.
As if it really is something important being taught."


6.
Dallas you wrote:
"As I see it: If we are working to first learn, and then to
verify accuracy, and finally, to broadcast the teachings of
Theosophy, we need to be secure in our basic references, and the
reasoning they convey -- for the sake, at least, of the students
who will read what we write."

My answer:
"Maybe so. But spiritual development by use of emails most
certainly
involves something we call DESIGN. Each email is a special
DESIGN.
It is being emailed with a notive behind it. It has a force due
to the spiritual guidance involved, the time, the place, the
people
involved,
the students, the teacher(s), the surroundings etc..
The DESIGN, which the email constitutes has a certain effect upon
the
readers.
This effect is not only directed at intellectual motivations, but
also
at developing the various levels of the inner organ ! I.e.
Intuitive levels
and higher."


7.
Dallas you wrote:
"If we don't care about them, then a portion of what we write
will
be limited to our own opinions and biases -- and it may take them
additional time to disentangle those."

My answer:
"Yes. Sometimes it must be better, that the student reads a
certain
number of books and have certain experiences before they abandon
your
view on - the - importance of UNENDING crossreferencing and
indexing.
But then it will maybe be better to offer the readers, that they
should read
the books
instead, so not to miss a point, by only getting a fraction of
the books
presented in an
quite often untimely manner - spiritually seen.
The teacher should more often than not write by NOT, (i.e. NOT) -
making UNENDING crossreferencing and indexing. Well, let us call
that a
view."

A saying of a kind:
If you steal from one source, it's plagiarism, but if you steal
from
hundreds it's scholarship. And if you don't, you are most often
accused of
doing it.
Are scholarship creating Theosophists ?

Another area of questioning:
So who owns the most - sources - of oil on the Planet today ?


Feel free to comment or do your best...

from
M. Sufilight with a smile...>:-)


================================


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dallas TenBroeck"
To:

Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 2:37 AM
Subject: RE: Cross-referencing and the like...


> Friday, May 09, 2003
>
> Re: Cross-referencing, etc....
>
> Dear M and Friends
>
> As we all profit from the work each other does and posts, the
> methods used are valuable if they direct us to the basis fro
> which Theosophy speaks.
>
> As I understand it, Theosophy is a definite system of facts and
> laws, just like engineering, or mathematics, or astronomy. The
> quotations, for me, locate various aspects of that system, to
my
> mind.
>
> I would rather have them than vague speculative waftings of
> capricious fancy. I can go to quotations, and the context, and
> learn something of what the original writer said. As far as
> possible I try to distance myself from "opinions." -- unless
they
> tally with the original and basic thinking and teachings.
>
> I am sorry but I don't get your point.
>
> The referencing is of course individual as to a method. There
> are many methods -- all good for the individual who uses them.
> Others devise their own, and some like them or not.
>
> As I see it: If we are working to first learn, and then to
> verify accuracy, and finally, to broadcast the teachings of
> Theosophy, we need to be secure in our basic references, and
the
> reasoning they convey -- for the sake, at least, of the
students
> who will read what we write.
>
> If we don't care about them, then a portion of what we write
will
> be limited to our own opinions and biases -- and it may take
them
> additional time to disentangle those.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dal
>