Theos-Talk Archives (January 2003 Message tt00107)

Message 10209 
From: "Daniel H. Caldwell <info@b...>" <info@b...> 
Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 6:38 am
Subject: Jerry S. on BAG's latest posting about MAHA VISHNU, 
GARBODAKSAYI VISHNU & BRAHMA


Bhakti Ananda Goswami's Comments are at <<<IN CAPS and at >.

Jerry's comments are at JS .

Jerry S. kindly provided the following comments on what BAG has 
recently written on MAHA VISHNU, GARBODAKSAYI VISHNU AND BRAHMA. Be 
sure to see also Jerry's P.S. at the end of his posting. 

Daniel
-------------------------------------------------------

JS The following comments are provided at the request of Daniel. 
However, I find myself unable to criticize BAG very much, except 
perhaps that he does not seem to understand the difference between 
exoteric Theosophy and esoteric Theosophy. But then, few do.

> You are correct to note that I have not been commenting on anything
except the 'exoteric' teachings of Theosophy. These are what are 
generally available to the public, and what I have been concerned 
with in this exchange. I am aware of other teachings. I once moved 
to Ojai California so I could study the Theosophical Society and 
related groups centered there. As there is a Theosophical Library 
there, I had the opportunity to do some reading in Theosophical 
sources. During that time I also visited Meditation Mount (A. 
Bailey's center)etc. and with the Theosophical Pseudo-Catholic Church 
members, Roy Masters people, Krishnamurti and Satya Sai Baba devotees 
and other esoteric, New Age, neo-Hindu and neo-Buddhist practitioners 
and groups in the area. The Ojai area is an epicenter of such 
activity. 

> Why I Became Interested in the Historical Study OF Theosophy 

> At the time I lived in Ojai, I was doing my interdisciplinary 
Master's Degree in the History of Religion, Comparative Religion and 
Theology. My interest in Theosophy and these related groups was due 
to my study of the dominance of Aryanism in the humanities in Western 
and Colonial Academia. People have not realized that Anglo-Germanic 
Aryanism came to rule in many fields of higher education at the end 
of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th. Social Studies, 
Linguistics, Anthropology, History etc. were pervaded with Euro-
Aryanism. Western Esotericism was similarly pervaded, and certain 
Aryanist assumptions began to impede real progress in a number of 
fields. My own personal discovery of 'Aryanism' was in the 1960s when 
I learned the 'hard way' that it was not ALLOWED to compare certain 
African, Semitic and European categories of evidence. Simply put, 
research was desirable and supported which reinforced the great 
divide between the supposed Aryan Indo-European races, languages,
religions and cultures, and those of the supposed Africans and 
Semites. Research like mine, which was focusing on forbidden areas 
of interaction between the 'races', or even the possible identity of 
one supposed 'race' as another, or a religious group, instead 
of a 'race', was NOT wanted in main-stream western academia. Any 
research which threatened to blur the well-established Aryanist line 
between the races, languages, religions and cultures was not 
acceptable. Later I was to learn of the great struggles other 
scholars faced with this same tyranny of Aryanism in their respective 
fields. Egyptology and Indology especially suffered from Arayanist 
doctrinarism. Why was this so ? The pervasive Euro-centric racism 
in many fields was at base Aryanist in theory. In my 
interdisciplinary research I was constantly running into evidence of 
the Aryanist academic 'knowledge filter'. This Aryanist filter 
censured, denied and suppressed anomalous information and studies 
that suggested anything was wrong with the Aryan model of the 
development of the High Civilizations of the Mediterranean and Indian 
Sub Continent. The impediments to my own studies were caused by this 
Aryanism. Since my personal realization of this in the 1960s, many 
other scholars have tackled the problem of Aryanism in their 
respective fields. One such treatment of the problem is in work of 
Prof. Martin Bernal. 

> BLACK ATHENA-The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilisation - 
Volume I: The Fabrication of Ancient Greece 1785-1985" by Martin 
Bernal, London:Vintage, 1991 



>So it has not been my purpose in this exchange to get into any depth 
discussion of the 
Theosophical teachings themselves. Instead my interest in this 
exchange has been the historicity and genealogy of thought of the 
Theosophical Society and the implication of this for subsequent 
movements, social and academic developments. I was originally 
invited to contribute something on the genealogy of the Eastern 
teachings in the Mahatma Letters. So mainly what I have been doing is 
merely pointing-out evidence of Sanskrit Vedic-Vaishnava
language and teachings in the Mahatma Letters and HPB's other 
writings. This is why, as you have correctly noted, I have not gotten 
into any discussion of the 'esoteric' Theosophical teachings per se, 
with anyone. 

<<<MAHA VISHNU IN NOT WITHIN ANY MATERIAL UNIVERSE. HE IS IN THE 
MAHATATTVA PORTION OF THE SPIRITUAL SKY, AND THE INFINITE NUMBER OF 
FINITE MATERIAL UNIVERSES (LIKE OUR OWN) ARE MANIFEST LIKE BUBBLES 
OUT OF THE 'PORES' OF HIS BODY. THESE ARE EMPTY UNTIL HE GLANCES ON 
THEM. HIS GLANCE IS CALLED SHAMBHU, AND THROUGH THIS LOVING GLANCE, 
HE MANIFESTS ALL OF THE FINITE JIVA-SOULS WITHIN EACH FINITE 
UNIVERSE. MAHA VISHNU THEN ENTERS INTO EACH UNIVERSE AS
GARBODAKSAYI VISHNU, THE SELF-SACRIFICED COSMIC PURUSHA AND THE 
PARAMATMA 'HOLY SPIRIT', LORD OF ALL HEARTS. HE ALSO MANIFESTS 
HIMSELF AS THE GUNA AVATARAS BRAHMA, VISHNU AND SHIVA, AND AS 
INFINITE DIRECT LILA INCARNATIONS AND 'EMPOWERED' SHAKTYAVESHA 
INCARNATIONS. >>>

JS Blavatsky would like this paragraph. It is a Hindu/Vedanta 
depiction of divinity self-expressing into manifold universes. 

> One of the things I am advocating is more specificity and clarity 
in discussions of such things. This is ONLY a Vaishnava depiction. 
The Mayavadi Shaivite Advaita Vedantists and other non-Vaishnava 
Hindus have no scriptures depicting such things. 

JS From a Buddhist view, I don't care for all of the personified 
reifications. 

> Your interpretation of the above as "personified reifications" 
shows that you have no understanding of the vast difference between 
the modern western concept of 'personification' and the ancient 
Eastern concept of the PERSONAL presence of atman and ATMAN 
throughout the cosmos and beyond. In the Vaishnava Tradition, ATMAN / 
PARABRAHMAN is NOT ultimately impersonal, and thus all emanations and 
incarnations, including the jiva-atmas are ALL PERSONAL. 
Personification is a concept known to the ancient Vaishnavas, but 
considered by them to be similar to idolatry, or the concocted 
worship of false 'gods' or Bhutas. 

JS But even Buddhism agrees with self-manifestation via Vajradhara to 
Vajrasattva and etc.

> The Foundation of Nepalese and Tibetan Pure Land Buddhism (devotion 
to Amitabha-Lokeshvara and Their Shakti as Mother Tara) is Krishna-
Vishnu and Tara centric Vaishnavism. This explains their common 
doctrines, and why the original texts and prayers etc. of these 
traditions are in Vaishnava Sanskrit. This is why the iconography 
of Pure Land Buddhism is essentially Vaishnava. 

JS "Lila incarnations" probably refers to the mayavic aspect of 
all creation while

> Lila 'incarnations' are usually Avataras as THEOPHANIES rather 
than actual INCARNATIONS. Some of the prominent Lila Avataras of 
Krishna-Vishnu are popularly worshiped in Nepalese and Tibetan 
Buddhism. For example the Horse-Headed Hayagriva Lokeshvara, Lion-
Headed Nrisingha Lokeshvara, and Boar-Headed Baraha Lokeshvara. 
Vishnu's Guna Avatara as Siva Bairava is Worshiped as Maha Kalah or 
Kalah-Bhairab, and Vishnu's Form as Dharma or Yama is worshiped as 
Yamantaka. There are scores of other direct connections. 

JS "Shaktyavesha incarnations" probably refers to the 
karmic aspect of all creation. Every manvantaric manifestation 
includes maya and karma at the outset.

> Shaktyavesha incarnations are ACTUAL INCARNATIONS 
not 'theophanies'. For example the Dalai Lamas were once considered 
incarnations of Amitabha, Lokeshvara or Chen Rei Zei. The Kathmandu 
Kumari is considered a 'Shaktyavesha', possessed or empowered 
incarnation of KALI. Shankaracarya was / is widely believed to be an 
incarnation of Shiva. 

<<<VISHNU IS ALSO CALLED HARI, PURUSHA, VASUDEVA, NARAYANA AND MORE 
THAN 1000 OTHER NAMES IN SANSKRIT. THE MANY BY-NAMES OF THE BIBLICAL 
DEITY ELI-YAHU-ADON, THE EGYPTIAN SUPREME GODHEAD HERU-ASU(OSIRIS)-
ATUM, THE GREEK HELI-OS-AUTOS (ONTOS. ATOMOS), AND JUPITER, ZEUS, 
AMMON POLIEUS ARE NAMES OF PURUSHA. >>>

JS There are many Egyptian "supreme godheads" but I am not familiar 
with this one, apparently a combination of Horus, Osiris, and Tem.

> HERU was the original Supreme Deity of Egyptian Heliopolitan 
Monotheism. His worship was pre-dynastic, was found on Crete and 
Rhodes, in the large settlements of the Nile Delta and then 
accompanied the rise of the first great civilization in the region, 
that of HERU-ASU at Heliopolis and Memphis. ASU or ASAR (Osiris) was 
Heru's alter-Form or 'Brother'. To learn more, search for HERU or 
HORUS THE ELDER. This Heru should NOT be confused with the much 
later HORUS THE SON OF ISIS AND OSIRIS. The Original Heru and Asu / 
Osiris are not the same as the ones worshiped over a THOUSAND YEARS 
later in the 'Horus son of Osiris' round of stories. At earliest 
Heliopolis, Heru and Asu were worshiped together as HELI-US, just as 
ELI and YAHU-BAAL were worshiped together in the Levant as ELIYAHU, 
and HARI and VASUDEVA (Vishnu) were always worshiped together in the 
East. There in earliest Heliopolis, the all-pervasive Form (KA / 
KAYA) of Heru-Asu ('Hor-Us' / Heli-Os / Eli-Yahu / Hari-Vasu) was 
worshiped as ATM / ATUM / ATMN / ATMAN, which worship was much later 
revived by Pharaoh Akhenaten as Heru-ATEN worship. 

JS Anyway, we humans do, in fact, tend to give out a lot of names for 
the same spiritual principles.

> My point is that there is a profound difference between ordinary 
names and the primary 'revealed' Names of God, which exist beyond the 
barriers of the racial and linguistic groups we have presently 
described in history. For example, OLU and HERU are the Supreme 
Deity Names of the Niger and Nilo-Saharan language families of 
Africa. HARI, HELI and SOLE are 'Indo-European' cognates of the same 
Deity Name, and ILU and ELI are the Sumerian and West Semitic forms 
of the same Deity Name. Thus we see COGNATES OF THE SAME DEITY NAME 
FOR THE SUPREME GOD OF THE AFRO-EGYPTIANS, INDO-EUROPEANS, SUMERO-
TAMIL AND SEMITES. Many more of Heru's / Hari's by-Names like 
ASAR / OSIRIS / ASAR-YAHU / ASSHUR / MARDUK ASARU / AHURA and ASURA 
can also be found in the African, Indo-European and Eastern Sanskrit 
and Prakrit Languages. Dismissing the many Names and Forms of God as 
merely the product of various human cultures or some kind of 
Archetypal projection leaves many very important questions unasked 
and unanswered. In the 1960s I recognized these cognate Holy Names, 
when it was still 'forbidden' to even compare them. Since then, the 
whole field of Helleno-Semitica has blossomed, and the computer 
assisted field of Super Linguistics has developed. Studies of the 
Nostratic Linguistic Super family, plus the Niger and Nilo-Saharan 
Linguistic Families are now yielding evidence that supports my 1960s 
findings regarding the cognate Names of the ONE GOD in Egyptian, Indo-
European and Semitic Monotheism. Findings in the new field of Super 
Linguistics are also being supported by interdisciplinary findings, 
such as those in the recent genetic studies of human migration. 


<<<THE DOCTRINE OF BRAHMA ON THE COSMIC LOTUS FROM THE BODY OF 
GARBODAKSAYI VISHNU IS RELATED TO THE HELIOPOLITAN TRADITION OF THE 
COSMIC AXIS MUNDI AT DELPHI (GARBHA = DELPHA), AND THE DOCTRINE OF 
HELIOS-PHANES, OR THEOPHANY IN EGYPT, WHERE THE 4 ARMED AND 4 FACED 
FORM OF HERU APPEARED AT THE DAWN OF THE COSMIC CREATION ON A LOTUS 
FROM THE BODY OF NILUS OR MZRYM / NAHARAIM / NARAYANA. >>>

JS OK. Of course the Egyptian axis mundi was the Nile, shaped 
somewhat like a lotus.

> Actually the Omphalos at Delphi was NOT originally a 'Phallic' 
symbol, but a navel or umbilicus. It represented the axis mundi that 
was Hari's / Heli' s (Vishnu's) navel / umbilicus, 
on which HELIOS PHANES APPEARED AT THE DAWN OF CREATION. Delphi was 
a Helios Shrine, and Delpha is cognate with GARBHA, the Name of the 
Form of Vishnu associated with the cosmic-navel axis mundi. In 
Egypt the doctrine Helios Phanes was that this four headed and armed 
Form of Helios appeared at the dawn of creation on the cosmic lotus 
GROWING FROM THE BODY OF NILUS. The Egyptian Nilus is the same Deity 
as Jupiter Marimus, Mizrym, the Semitic Nahariam and Vaishnava 
Narayana. Thus the Egyptian Icons of the Cosmic Lotus growing from 
the hieroglyph for NHL (Hebrew NHR, Sanskrit NAR) with Helios Phanes 
appearing on it are exactly the equivalent of the Vaishnava Icons of 
Brahma appearing on the cosmic lotus from the axis mundi navel of 
GARBHA -daksayi Vishnu / NARAYANA. The LOTUS or ROSE was the 
international symbol of the Feminine Shekinah / Shakti and Sacred 
Isle of Helios, the Isle of Rhodes or Nymphia. Rhoda = ROSE, and 
the Isle was also called NYMPHIA, which means Lotus, and ASTERIA, 
which means STAR. So the Rose, Lotus or Star (especially the HEXAD) 
were universal symbols of Helios and His Shakti in the ancient 
world. The coinage of Rhodes and sometimes members of the Rhodian 
Heliopolitan Asyla Federations (Leagues) often had a Rose, Lotus or 
Star on them. 

JS I believe that they also accepted a spiritual or cosmic 
Nile, the physical Nile being its material reflection.

> Great point ! The material Nile River of MIZRYM descended from 
the foot of the Deity Heru-Asu-Nhl in the mountains of the Moon. As 
the river of baptism / grace It was thought to descend from outside 
the cosmos, beyond the starry heavens from the Foot or Throne of the 
Lord Heru-Asu NHL in the Spiritual Sky. Around Jerusalem and 
Jericho, the Jordan NHR River of NHRYM descended from the Foot or 
Throne of ELI-YAHU, seated on HIs throne in the Heaven of Heavens. 
The faithful performed mikveoth / ritual baths in it to wash away 
sin, just as in Egypt. This tradition of the NHRYM / NZRYN Nazareans 
has been prominently preserved in Christianity. At one time the 
entire region of the Rivers (Mesopotamia) was called the land of 
NHRYN / NAHARIAM / NARAYANA. The New Testament even describes the 
River of Life flowing from the Heavenly Throne of the Lord and The 
Lamb! In India, the sacred Ganga (Ganges) is believed to flow from 
the Foot of Hari-Vasudeva as Narayana Vishnu, seated on His Throne in 
the Vikuntha Heavens. Just as in Egypt's Nile and in the Jordan, 
Vaishnavas and all other 'Hindus' immerse themselves in the Ganga to 
wash away sin in the saving foot-water of THE SAME TRANSCENDENT GOD 
OF GRACE.

<<<VISHNU WITH 'BUBBLE' UNIVERSES IS MAHA VISHNU OUTSIDE OF ALL 
MATERIAL UNIVERSES, AND VISHNU WITH THE LOTUS-NAVEL AND BRAHMA IS 
WITHIN EACH 'IMPREGNATED' FINITE COSMIC GLOBE / 'EGG'. >>>

JS Blavatsky refers to creative forces "outside all material 
universes" as Parabrahman, and "within each" universe as Brahma.

> Because Brahma is the 'post' of Creator (more properly organizer) 
in any set or cosmos, this is correct. 

<<<THE THEOSOPHICAL SYSTEM DOES NOT SEEM TO CONCERN ITSELF WITH THE
TRANSCENDENT REALM AND GODHEAD, OR THE EXISTENCE OF OTHER UNIVERSES 
OUTSIDE OF OUR OWN. IT SEEMS TO TAKE THE DAYS AND NIGHTS OF BRAHMA AS 
AN ULTIMATE AND ENDLESS CYCLE. >>>

JS I would agree that this is largely true for what I have called 
exoteric Theosophy. It is not so for esoteric Theosophy. Probably 99% 
of Blavatsky's writings, for example, address what appears to us to 
be going on within our own manvantara. But she does acknowledge other 
universes, and also transcendent realms which she collectively refers 
to as Beness outside of our universe and as the "invisible worlds" 
within it. She says little about Beness or what she calls the 
Absolute (a term which I do not like because she uses it as a blind)
probably because she felt that the public of her day was not ready to 
hear it.


> This is the fact. I agree with all of what you have just stated. 

> About the invisible worlds, in Vaishnavism not all of them are 
subtler material realms. Some are extra-dimensional access to other 
universes and even the Spiritual Sky itself. Just as the 'Kingdom of 
Heaven' is also within in Catholic Tradition, in Vaishnavism there is 
not only a Transcendent Realm that one can go to by going 'outside' 
of any material universe, but because the material worlds are 
situated within the Mahatattva within the Spiritual Sky, the 
Spiritual Sky interpenetrates all the Mahatattva and material 
universes as an extra-dimensional Realm ! Thus one can 'reach' the 
Spiritual Sky and God through either cataphatic means or apophatic 
means, by journeying either without or within.

<<<THIS IS BASICALLY THE JAIN. THERAVADIN BUDDHIST, AND ADVAITI VIEW, 
THAT ENDLESS CYCLING IN THIS UNIVERSE IS ALL THAT THERE IS.>>>

JS Again, I agree largely with this, in that the TSs emphasize it so 
much that we forget a more esoteric interpretation is available. And 
I have pointed out in many of my past posts that Dallas and others 
keep saying in Theosophical terms exactly what is taught in 
Hinayana/Theravadin Buddhism but not in Mahayana Buddhism. 

> BLESS YOU SIR ! Yes there is a transcendental CORE to Pure Land 
Mahayana Buddhism, and despite many centuries of Theravadin attempts 
to eradicate this core, it is still accessible if one is determined 
to get to it ! For the Theravadin Buddhists, there also is an end to 
the endless cycling, but that end is in the VOID of "absolute 
nothingness" (see Maseo Abe). However, in the original Pure Land 
Tradition, the doctrine of liberation was one of MOKSHA for real 
beings, in an infinite PURE LAND Sukhavati, through the salvific 
grace of Amitabha-Lokesvara-Hrih the PERSONAL TRI KAYA. The attempt 
to reconcile the doctrine of the saving cosmic intercession of 
Amitabha, Lokesvara and Bodhisattvas with the doctrine of anatta is 
absurd. Why so much effort of not-real beings to 'save' other not-
real beings ? When HPB chose to promote the Pure Land Mahayana 
doctrine of 'Nirmanya Kaya' Bodhisattvas over promoting the Theravada 
doctrine of nirvana, she was choosing to affirm the existence of 
savable atmas as the object of compassion. However, not having a 
Dharma Kaya to promote publicly, she kept her chelas and the Mahatmas 
endlessly circulating in the great rounds of our universe ! It 
should be noted that one NEVER 'falls' back into material birth after 
being 'born' in the PURE LAND, and the WAY to get to the PURE LAND is 
through FAITH in the salvific OTHER-POWER OF AMITABHA, Lokeshvara, 
Their Bodhisattvas, saints and HOLY MOTHER TARA / Kuan Yin. 

JS Theosophists seem basically content to spend eternity in mindless
mayavic incarnations. Well, this is not for me, and I can't find the 
need to do this in esoteric Theosophy anywhere. Exoteric Theosophy 
misses the ball by dismissing the doctrine of liberation, one of 
Buddha's four noble truths.


<<<THE BRAHMAN LIGHT (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH BRAHMA) PERVADES BOTH 
THIS AND THE SPIRITUAL SKY. MERGING INTO THE BRAHMAN EFFULGENCE OF 
THE GODHEAD IS NOT DESIRED BY ANYONE EXCEPT THE BRAHMAVADIS WHO ARE 
DEVOTEES, AND THE MAYAVADIS WHO ARE ATHEISTS. THE BRAHMAVADIS 
EXPERIENCE A 'MERGING' RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD WHILE IN CONSCIOUSNESS 
CONTACT WITH HIS BRAHMAN EFFULGENCE, BUT THE MAYAVADIS
HAVE ONLY A COMPLETELY IMPERSONAL EXPERIENCE. BA G>>>

JS The difference between the Brahmavadis and Mayavadis is night and 
day; the former rests on the upper cosmic planes while the latter 
rests on the fourth. The former has clarity and bliss while the 
latter has nothing at all except perhaps peace.


> Well put, and I greatly appreciate that you know the difference. 
Most Hindus and Buddhists don't , what to speak of anyone else ! My 
only addition to your statement would be that in Vaishnava Vedanta, 
there are also Brahmavadis in the Brahma Jyoti (Brahman) in the 
Spiritual Sky. Some of these also have a kind of bliss, because 
theirs is an experience of merging with the Brahman, as a beloved may 
desire to 'merge' with their Lover. Thus many Sufi Saints for 
instance were 'divine love' Brahmavadis. Sri Krishna says 
throughout the Shastra that He is the Source of the Brahman 
Effulgence, and that He can be worshiped as the Brahman by 
impersonalists and devotees too. 


Jerry S.

PS. Those Theosophists who dislike BAG's criticism of Theosophy have 
to remember that he seems to be primarily attacking exoteric 
Theosophy as promoted in the TSs and as found in literal 
interpretations of the original writings. An esoteric or "higher" 
interpretation of those original writings is also available, and to 
which his criticisms do not apply. Blavatsky throws out hints of this 
esoteric tradition throughout her exoteric writings but one must
be able to see it through all of her blinds.


> Actually I am only pointing out two things, 1. that HPB started 
out in the East teaching Theravadin Buddhism, went through a phase of 
Advaiti Mayavada and ended up teaching a mix of these and other 
things tied together within a predominantly Vaishnava Vedic-Puranic 
cosmology and thought system. 2. Because of her hostility to 
Christianity, monotheism, and religious authority in general, she was 
not trained in the proper understanding of the Vedic-Vaishnava 
sources she was studying, and furthermore consistently edited-out, 
covered, minimized, ignored and / or explained-away the Personal 
GOD of the Vedic-Vaishnava sources she was studying. 


**********************************************************************
******************

>ONE FINAL NOTE ON HBP AND VAISHNAVA ICONOGRAPHY

> See Below. The connection between the Iconography of Vishnu and 
esoteric Temple Architecture can be understood in detail from the 
Vaishnava Scripture the Silpa Shastra. This elaborate Vaishnava Text 
gives the mathematical formulas for both Temple Architecture and the 
Icons of Vishnu and Shakti and all the other sacred murtis to inhabit 
and adorn temples. 


Message 10246 

From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@a...> 
Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 4:43 am
Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: on our toes What is THEOSOPHY


The teachings of the orthodox dead-letter churches - are dead wisdom,
because there isn't in a certain sense any wisdom there, (or not much 
anyway in their minds).But many of the old religious buildings 
contains information on Theosophy, the ancient wisdom of all 
ages...Some of them exists today. Even some of the Christian churches 
contains "the language of the birds" - the alchemists or "builders" 
language. The same goes for some of the Mosques of Islam - using
the words to form pictures. And the God Vishnu in India is also often
pictured using this language. A language coinsiding with the use of 
the 7 keys - and the mystery language of HPB's. It is said, that 
these teachings of symbols contains much wisdom. The teachers of the 
dead-letter doesn't understand this. These buildings mention by 
Skinner in the above exists many of them today ! Some of them even in
America...! (according to HPB).