Theos-Talk Archives (December 2002 Message tt00330)

Hello wry-No I didn't misunderstand you and my discussion of Mahatmas was not in response to your mention of Santa Clause and the elves, and I was in no way questioning your belief in Mahatmas. That is none of my business. 

I'll be honest with you, although HPB was and is the gateway for me (just speaking for me) to the Mahatmas, my concern for them and knowledge of them has nothing to do with the past of the movement and any analysis regarding HPB and the people she knew. The Light Bringers, as I have chosen to characterize all who have done just that for humanity, are "Great Souls" because of what they do, not because of the name used to describe them, or who they knew. (does that rhyme?)

My point is, if you take the writings in general, (and I mean all of HPB's writings) on their own, then they, the Mahatmas, speak for themselves, as they have throughout the ages before the term Mahatmas was ever presented to the west. She HPB, by her own admission, merely presents them and their wisdom to us. The test, if we will, is to put it to practice. As the Buddha said, do not accept that teaching which you cannot live with. And I say (to me all of the time): But do find something which works, and get out of the "burning house".

Perfected human beings are difficult to comprehend in so many ways. But as ideals, they are the best, and as teachers, who could do better. These are the true friends of humanity who will never disown those who disown others or them. They are presented as the elder bothers in the sense of those who feel the responsibility of family for family. 

I say take what has been offered, as slowly as one must, but take it. Incredulity can only last as long as it does. I find disbelief regarding the possibility of fabrication in any sense, a pain I don't need. There is no room for it if what we are concerned with is put into our lives and used to see if it "holds water".

Therefore, I would say, that there is direct connection between the Mahatmas and Santa clause. They do exist and even more so around the Christmas season. No chimney necessary but some inner assembly required. 

Steve L.


----- Original Message -----
From: wry
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 12:58 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Theos-World Wry about the Masters

Hi Steve. I was afraid you might take my message the wrong way, but I hoped
not. I agree with everything you have said. I was not trying to imply that
the masters do not exist, but rather that it cannot be demonstrated whether
they exist or not by the approach of analyzing the similarities between them
and certain people Madame Blavatsky knew.

Re. "fabrication," this word can mean something else besides making up of a
story, and that is putting material together in such a way that something
new is made out of it. If what is made or established is a certain kind of
connection point, this is a window though which miracles can occur, by the
use of the creative faculty applied to material that is already existent in
such a way that it becomes transformed. Maybe we can talk about this some
more at another time.

I believe that when we talk about a fully perfected human being, it is a
little bit of a fantasy, as anybody, no matter how developed, can always
learn to communicate a little bit better, as this is a skill that is
continuously developing. What is the flaw in relationship to "perfection"?
It is at the flaw where real relationship begins, but is the flaw the same
as the relationship?

I understand that by using the image of Santa Claus I seem to be implying
that the mahatmas are a matter of belief, or are not real people, but this
is not necessarily the case. A mahatma would, presumably be a very busy
person. He would not have time to visit as many people as he would need to
in the flesh, so to speak. Perhaps Madame Blavatsky understood how to open
certain doorways so some kind of visitation could happen more easily. This
may not be the view of conventional theosophy (T?), but it is my own.

For me, Santa Claus, ACTUALLY exists, as do elves and fairies, so I would
not be telling a child a lie if I said so, but this is between me and my
"God". I hope this better explains where I am coming from, as I will try to
stay on this list for a long time. This subject of the existance of the
masters has been an issue of contention among certain members, and even a
thorn, and I would like to clarify what my position is on this, once and for
all. Thanks for helping me do so. Wry


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Levey" <levey_steven@hotmail.com>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Bad Karma plus immoral plus ignorant


> Hello wry-This notion of "fabrication of the Masters" seems odd to me. In
> other words, what is the point of fabrication if history is repleate with
> their intervention? Now you might say that this is up to dispute. But, it
> can only be disputed if the definition one holds of the concept of
> "Mahatama" leaves one with overly miraculous or fairytale beliefs
regarding
> their existance.
>
> This is not a faith belief issue, they are because they have to be, given
> the actual possiblity for perfection which exists in all beings. Even from
a
> Darwinian perspective they are the fittest. We suffer with how
extraordinary
> a being can be, compared to us. We are always lowering our standards in
> relation to our ignorance of greatness.
>
> Oh, there are also people and systems which need them (Mahatmas) for their
> own purposes and consequently have fabricated their existance.
> When a group or an individual does this then some other group has to
respond
> defensively that Mahatmas either cannot exist or certainly the claim
makers
> are making false claims, in the event that the Mahatmas are given credit
for
> existing.
>
> History is repleate with this nonsense also, and if I were a Mahatma I
would
> remain silent and work behind the scenes. But, apparently their needs are
> for the greater good and coming out into our world, as problematic as it
can
> be, is done for purposes of their own and needs we are ignorant of.
>
> If the profound actions of different individuals on the world scene are
seen
> as the actions of "Great Souls" then they have been here throughout
history.
> Definition is an important thing here.
>
> What are "Great Souls"? Ghandi refused the applilation of Mahatma. Not
> because the concept is some how false, but because it means so much to him
> as to be wrongly applied when attached to his name.
>
> This dispute is similar to those who really cannot believe that the notion
> of theosophy can exist. They think this because the idea of truth in all
> areas of human endeavor is seen as relative and absolutes are just not
> possible to them. Also, theosophy has been so poorly represented by those
> useing the name with a large t (T).
>
> But, Theosophy does exist, (how can it not-things and people really do
work
> in particular ways from a star to a stone) regardless of how poorly we or
> others represent it to the world, and so do, of human neccesity, the
> Mahatmas.
>
> Believe me our doubts say more about us than it can about them.
>
> Steve L.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "wry" <wry1111@earthlink.net>
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Bad Karma plus immoral plus ignorant
> >Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:56:19 -0800
> >
> >Hi Steve. Your message is very interesting. I will make a few comments. I
> >used to believe it was wrong to give Santa Claus to a child, but as I
began
> >to understand more and more the fascinating subject of allegory, I came
to
> >realize, it is a gift. I personally believe it is important for children
to
> >believe, as long as that child's reason is developed appropriately at
each
> >appropriate stage. When I was a child, Grimms Fairy Tales gave me great
> >hope. It is amazing that some "educated" parents will not give these
> >stories
> >to their children. It is natural for a child to believe in Santa Claus
and
> >when the time is appropriate, the child will let go and move to the next
> >level.
> >
> >I have had the fortune to receive much Buddhist teaching, though I
consider
> >myself to be only a bare beginner about to enter the Mahayana path.
Anyway,
> >Buddhism is very interesting in that it teaches that there are different
> >kinds of religions appropriate for people at different stages of
> >development
> >and that it is not right action to interfere with this. It is said in the
> >tenets of the Madhyamika School of Mahayana Buddhism that the Buddha
taught
> >different and even sometimes seemingly contradictory teachings for people
> >who were at different stages of development and out of these different
> >teachings were developed the four schools of Buddhism.The tolerance of
some
> >of these great Tibetan teachers for what they consider to be less
developed
> >forms of religion is amazing. I will go on and make some commentary on
> >your message, which follows.
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Steven Levey" <levey_steven@hotmail.com>
> >To: "theos talk" <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:29 PM
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Bad Karma plus immoral plus ignorant
> >
> >
> > > Hello wry-
> > >
> > > I have had good luck explaining to my daughter that all who give to
> >others
> >around that period of time dedicated to the great Light Bringers
(oh-11/17
> >to 12/25 or so) are doing the work of Santa Cause. Believe me, I have
felt
> >as if I am off of the proverbial hook and actually as if I have said
> >something to her that was useful. So, there is and there is not a Santa
> >Clause in my book.
> > >
> > > It has always been a source of amusement to me to watch a Miracle on
> >34th
> >Street at this time of year, and see the Court being forced to admit the
> >existence of Santa Clause, because the federal government has to. This
> >based
> >in the mail at the Post office to Santa Clause (as the story goes). I
work
> >for the Government so I therefore have to believe.
> > >
> > > Besides, It is motive that determines karma, so let the "chips fall
> >where
> >they may" as long as hearts are in the right place.
> > >
> >
> >Wry:Yes, it is motive that determines karma. What you say here is very
> >beautiful.
> >
> >
> > > What aught to be explaining away is the relationship of Christmas
> >belonging to the Church. I would love to see its reattachment to the
Winter
> >solstice as the central celestial occurrence which marks the return of
the
> >Son and the sun back to the Western Hemisphere. This kind of thinking
> >allows
> >the Light bringers (Mahatmas) back into humanity at large as represented
by
> >the sun and marked by the "longer and longer" days.
> >
> >I always try to educate people about the pagan origin of Christmas and
its
> >relationship to the winter solstice.(Once when I was in my mid twenties I
> >was a pagan for about a year, not a member of a group, but with Pan. It
was
> >profound but I outgrew this fast, as I am at heart a monotheist, even now
> >that I am a Buddhist. I think most people understand about Christmas and
> >the winter solstice on an intuitive level. Being alive is always about
> >light
> >and at this time of year, especially in cold climates, it is sometimes
> >difficult to keep the faith. The Jewish festival of lights is
interesting,
> >too, in relationship to the winter solstice, One tradition involves the
> >spinning of the dradel until the participants run out of coins and the
> >winner gets them all. To me, the spinning for the coins is about
something
> >profound which is celestial, but I cannot quite put my finger on it
enough
> >to verbalize it.
> >
> >The problem about tracing the Mahatmas back to an individual experiences
> >with certain people and saying Madame Blavatsky fabricated it or modeled
it
> >out of that, is that this is too simplistic to explain much of anything.
It
> >is, in my opinion, not valuable, and even destructive. People tend to
think
> >in terms of either this or that. Because a person fabricates something,
> >they
> >assume there are no masters. Or because a person wants to believe there
are
> >masters, they assume there is no fabrication of masters. The truth is
that
> >there can be both a deliberate fabrication of masters and also real
masters
> >existing in the same time and space, each connected materially, and
perhaps
> >one cannot exist without the other. It is a miracle and in the realm of
the
> >miraculous. It is the believing that "I" can hold on to this material
that
> >is deadly and will lead into the nether. This is the illusion, as has
been
> >suggested in some very insightful messages recently.
> >
> >What is the inner meaning of Santa Claus? Has anyone on here who is as
> >deeply interested in word roots as I am tried to ponder this? We have
> >sixteen days left before Christmas. For anyone who is interested, try to
> >figure this out, but if you do, do not tell, ever, as we would not want
to
> >rob anyone of the joy of discovering for himself, tomorrow, next year or
> >even someday. If I find the poem I made up last Christmas to give some
> >clues
> >to this word puzzle, I will put it out here, but I am too busy. Actually,
I
> >am going to make up a different clue poem right now that will be good
> >enough: "In Steve L's message you will find a clue. Bear with the puzzle
> >till you link anew. My note to Bhakti tells you something, too." Wry
> > >
> > > Just some ideas-Steve L.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: wry
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 1:36 AM
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Theos-World Bad Karma plus immoral plus ignorant
> > >
> > > To whom this may concern: Is it or is it not bad karma, immoral and
> >ignorant to tell a young child there is no Santa Claus? Is it valuable
and
> >important and natural for this child to believe in the existence of Santa
> >Claus? Moreover, IS there a Santa Claus, and are there really elves and
> >fairies? Everyone who is really anyone knows the answer to this one.
> > >
> > > Moreover, are there actually masters, both living and "dead" (who are
> >still alive)? I, personally, who have done much experimentation with the
> >occult, am here to suggest that It is perhaps both bad karma and even
> >dangerous to pursue this line of questioning of Madame Blavatsky and the
> >so-called derivation of the masters any further, as, in respect to this,
> >the
> >die is already cast. Perhaps the physical universe is constructed in such
a
> >way as to offer an explanation for the "masters" that is both miraculous
> >and also mundane
> > >
> > > Remember to sprinkle everything with just a little bity of salt, not
too
> >much and not too little. This has more to do with bread making than with
> >magic. With this in mind, we can get down to the five- minutes -at-a-time
> >Work of mastering a situation which is most problematic, life on earth,
in
> >such a way that something within is raised gently to heaven without
losing
> >touch with both the phytsical earth and also an inner earth or ground.
> > >
> > > If you sense or feel a master by your side as you are going about your
> >day
> >and attempting to make a certain bread, keep your mind on your hands
> >kneading the dough and do not worry about the masters or not-masters. In
> >this way, simple daily activities will take on a greater significance and
> >everything will assume a shape that is already its own star, Home. Wry
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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