Theos-Talk Archives (November 2002 Message tt00891)

Subject: ANSWER TO DANIEL and Good Bye to THEOS TALK

(I am not leaving the list, but will only be reading it from now on.) 

ANSWER TO 
Message 9199 of 9235 
From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" 
Date: Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:22 am
Subject: Goswami's Parts III and IV

Dear Mr. Caldwell,

Thankyou for your thoughtful response. My replies are below at >>> 

Dear Goswami,

Thank you for posting both Parts III and IV of your essay to Theos-
Talk.

Your essay is quite interesting and contains much food for thought.

>>>Even the best of friends, in fact the very best of friends, 
continually try to stimulate each others' growth with thought-
provoking communication. The phrase 'food for thought' is so apt, 
because thought is actually nourished by new, difficult and 
challenging ideas and stimulus. Whether one has a monistic or 
dualistic world-view, the Socratic DIAlogue method of teaching and 
learning is very valuable. You and I, and the other contributors 
here, have raised questions that merit investigation, and this is a 
good thing, not a negative thing. Even if some people have been a 
little impolite, I am glad to have heard from them all, and consider 
that there are some sincerely kind and compassionate thinkers on this 
forum as well, who have made the visit here even more worth while. 
If I had the physical strength, I would like to correspond with each 
of them individually. However, due to my disabilities, I can't 
possibly do it. So I offer my respectful obeisances to you all as I 
conclude my Theos Talk correspondance with the following responces. 

Unfortunately, you have asserted many things but have not given the 
evidence and documentation that would allow your readers to judge 
whether your generalizations are valid or not. Hopefully at some 
point, you will provide some detailed examples of the documentation 
behind some of your generalized statements.

>>>Since the advent of the internet in my life, I have taken to 
choosing key search-word terms in my writing, so that when I am 
painting large historical pictures with very broad strokes, anyone 
questioning my grasp or presentation of the facts / details can quite 
easily go online and using any good search engine, usually find 
relevant supporting information about my assertions in a few mouse 
clicks. On my saragrahi.org Column "One Faith", I have given many 
more details relative to some of the assertions I have made here, and 
I invite you and any of the readers on this egroup to go there and 
take a look. Remember that if you search the names and terms in my 
writings there, you can often easily find voluminous proofs on the 
internet to back-up my assertions. These will not be from such 
spurious authorities as Eliaphas Levi, Nicholas Notovitch, Louis 
Jacolliot, Spencer Lewis, Edgar Cayce, Alice Bailey or other such out-
right concoctors or 'akasic record' readers. I use only the best of 
reliable sources in my work, and do not consider mediums and 
channelers, who do not even have their facts of mundane history 
straight, to be any kind of authorities on anything. I have already 
suggested that serious students of theosophy (small t) read the 
actual source works, even if in authorized translations, of the 
Mahatmas' 'Hindu' and Buddhist thought. I have given a publisher 
(BBT) for authentic Vaishnava translations of the Vaishnava Shastras. 
I have even recommended an Advaitan source (Fr. Raimundo 
Panikkar's "...Mantra Manjari...") for the Vedic Hymns in English, 
despite the fact that an Advaiti interpretation of the Hymns is a 
denial of their plain and obvious theism and an imposition of a 
modern view on them. Below I will provide some texts as examples of 
the useful source works in English, that I have employed in my 
research. 

>>>For a very general overview of my perspective on how my own 
adopted religious tradition of Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Vaishnavism 
relates to the ancient mysteries, I would especially like to 
recommend two books for theosophists. Meditations on the Tarot: A 
Journey into Christian Hermeticism by Robert Powell (Translator), 
Hans Urs Von Balthasar (Afterword). The Author of this amazing work 
was the well known esoteric Master Valentin Tomberg. This book was 
written in his final phase of Catholic Christian maturity, when all 
of his previous studies resolved into his worship of the Jesus Christ 
of Faith. In this text, he clearly describes the differences between 
the monist and non-dualist views of the Advaitans and the 
transcendental personalism of the 'dualists' like Madhva and the 
qualified non-dualists like Caitanya. He concludes that the highest 
most all-embracing experience of the absolute, is the experiance of 
the transcendental Personal God of the Bible and Bhagavad-gita, of 
Abraham, Issac and John, of Madhva Ramanuja and Caitanya ! I believe 
that he even makes a summary statement of this on page 167, however I 
don't have a copy of the book anymore, so can't be sure. (Try page 
157 as well.) Thus this unrivaled esoteric Master / Adept, at the 
end of his life, in his greatest wisdom and maturity SPECIFICALLY 
identifies the highest experiance of the absolute with the Judeo-
Catholic Mystical Tradition that my own Vaishnava lineage is 
historically related to. The texts that I have stated (in my essay 
here), that HPB / the Mahatmas borrowed from, are those of the Madhva-
Caitanya Lineage of Vaishnavism that Tomberg specifically mentions in 
his conclusive statement about self and God realization. Somehow in 
his own inquiries into truth, he went beyond the historically late 
speculations of the Advaitis and Theravadin Buddhists, R. Steiner / 
the Anthroposophists and Theosophists, and studied into the ancient 
Judeo-Catholic and Vaishnava source-works themselves. There he found 
the full unabridged truth about the ancient Mysteries, and became 
reconciled to the God of exoteric faith, organized GSS religion, and 
real incarnate world history.

>>>In his multi volume series on the "History of Indian Philosophy" 
Sir Surendranath Das Gupta states that the greatest accomplishment of 
Indian thought was not in the mayavic teachings on illusion and 
monism in the Advaita Vedanta of the Tradition of Sankaracarya, but 
in the Advaitic system's REALISTIC refutation, and in the assertion 
of a TRANSCENDENTAL PERSONALISM by Madhvacarya and his brilliant 
followers like Jayatirtha and Vyasatirtha. In his volume that treats 
the Tradition of Madhva, he also mentions the achievement of the 
followers of Caitanya (in Gaudiya Vaishnavism), which is related to 
the Madhvite Lineage. The reason I chose to specialize in the study 
of Gaudiya Caitanyaite Vaishnavism 30 plus years ago, was that this 
is the lineage that most intensively focuses on the inner Bridal 
Mysticism of Radha-Krishna-centric Vaishnavism, and the Purusha-Sukta 
related salvific tradition of the transcendent Baladeva-Sankarashan 
in His multi-form as the Rig Vedic Purusha Yupa-Dhvaja (Self-
Sacrificed Macro-Cosmic Deity) Vishnu (the Pure Land Buddhist 
Lokesvara) Who descends from age to age to save the world. My earlier 
studies in Old Testament related Egyptian and Greek (Afro-Helleno-
Semitic) connections had led me directly to Vaishnavism and from 
there to the sattvic forms of Mahayana Buddhism and Shiva-Shakti 
worship. The Madhva and Caitanyaite Traditions are the vehicles of 
transmission, which have conveyed the most ancient traditions of 
Vedic-Vaishnava Transcendental Personalism and Bridal Mysticism to 
the present as living traditions. This Madhva-Gaudiya Lineage of 
Vaishnavism is therefore an inexhaustible treasure-trove of 
information and inspiration for someone such as myself (or Tomberg 
and Das Gupta) who wants to understand the both the oldest historical 
(Vedic) stratum, and most rarified heights of human thought and 
mystical experiance / realization. This series on the history of 
Indian Philosophy is old, but provides a good over-view for anyone 
wanting to compare the Advaitic teachings of the Shankarites, and the 
Dvaita (and later qualified non-dualistic) teachings of Madhva and 
Caitanya. 

>>>It should be kept in mind that the Vedic-Vaishnava sources 
themselves are centuries to thousands of years older than the 
commentaries of either Shankara or Madhva. These source works, like 
the Vedic Hymns, are without doubt the testimony of worshipers of the 
Giving (Masculine) PERSONAL DEITY PURUSHA or VISHNU and His Receiving 
(Feminine) PRAKRITI SAKTI / SHEKINAH. They clearly promote YOGA, 
which means NOT to merge two into one, but to YOKE two together, TO 
MOVE AS ONE as in a pair / yoke of oxen ! The word CONJUGAL tells 
the entire tale about what real, authentic YOGA was all about...hence 
BRIDAL MYSTICISM. The root JUG in CONJUGAL, like YOKE, means to join 
TWO AS ONE, but not to obliterate their diversity in that unity. 
Think YOGA-YOKE-CONJUGAL. The Advaitans ignored the clear 
distinction in the earlier Vedic-Vaishnava source works between the 
Giving (YANG / PURUSHA) Supreme Self Paramatman and the Receiving 
(YIN / PRAKRITI)finite self, the jivatma. Thus they missed the 
Upanishadic Bridal Mysticism of the TWO Love Birds on the mystical 
TREE of LIFE, and failed to grasp the clear reference to this in the 
Biblical story of Adam and Eve. In Genesis and the Upanishadic LOVE 
BIRDS Tradition, the Lord and the finite soul are lovers in 
transcendence, but when the jiva (hEVE, the "Mother of All Living") 
becomes distracted by the fruits on the mystical tree of life, she 
momentarily forgets Her Lord / Lover, and tries to enjoy the fruit 
independently of Him, the Original Giver. This separating 
forgetfulness is her (maha material) MAYA or enthrallment, and 
constitutes the "fall" of the jivas / EVE into the saha world of 
material birth, death, disease and old-age. The jivas, who are 
expansions through the Receiving (YIN) potency of SHAKTI / SHEKINAH 
are not separated without hope of recovery within the saha world, 
because God their Lover as PARAMATMAN 'descends' to experiance the 
saha world with them AS ADON-YAHU / ATUM / ATEN / PARAM ATMAN / 
ADAM / ATOMOS / AUTOs / ONTOS etc.. Out of his PLENUM / PURNAM of 
Self-effusive love, He INCARNATES to rescue them from eternal 
lovelessness in the multi-universes and cyclic worlds of REAL but 
TEMPORARY MATTER. This Bridal Mysticism drama of divine rescue is at 
the core of Judeo-Catholic, Greek, Egyptian, Eastern and numerous 
ancient spiritualities. 

>>>The second book that I consider 'must' reading for t/Theosophists 
in relationship to this subject is called 
>>>Sophia-Maria: A Holistic Vision of Creation 
Thomas Schipflinger
Samuel Weiser 02/98 Paperback $22.95 
ISBN 1-57863-022-3 

>>>Again this book actually zeros-in on the thea-logical connections 
between the Judeo-Catholic SHEKINAH (CHOKMAH) MARY-SOPHIA, the Pure 
Land Buddhist TARA and the Vaishnava RADHA. Like Tomberg, Fr. 
Schipflinger has seen through the veil of history to the single 
SHAKTI / SHEKINAH at the core of all the Bridal Mysticism Divine Love 
Traditions. What my own work brings to this truth is the actual 
solid interdisciplinary evidence of historical connections between 
these traditions. At the dawn of history in the Minoan Era in the 
Mediterranean Sea, HERU-ASU / HELI-US / ELI-YAHU was already 
worshiped there on the sacred Isle of Rhodes by Africans, Europeans 
and Semites as KOUROS (KRISHA KESHAVA) the Divine Lover of the Soul. 
On Rhodes, the monotheistic Transcendent, Incarnating and Immanent 
Godhead of Heliopolitan civilization in Egypt, the Levant and Europe, 
HELIOS KOUROS, was worshiped with His Feminine Sekhet / Shekinah 
(SHAKTI) RHODA-ASTARIA-NYMPHIA. This is the tradition of Mary the 
Mystical Rose (RHODA / RADHA), Stella Maris (TARA MARINA) and the 
mystical Lilly or LOTUS / PADME (SRI or LAKSHMI). If one does not 
suffer from Euro-centric, Afro-centric or Indo-centric prejudice, or 
atheism, then these profoundly important connections are easy to 
discover studying real-world religious history. 

For example, let us take just one small section of your essay. Let 
me quote it first:

"Scholars of the Western Esoteric Traditions and 
sciences, and non-Indian Languages have shown that the Theosophical 
Society writings of HPB contained enormous amounts of material from 
other sources, that were not properly credited by her. In the case 
of the Sanskrit Content of the Mahatma Letters, this is again what 
was obviously done. Ideas and language were appropriated principally 
from classic Vaishnava Source-works in Sanskrit, and these were used 
unjustifiably out of context and often with corrupted meaning to 
create a world-view filled with a pathological obsession about race 
in a Darwinist-related new evolutionary model. The challenging and 
valuable ideas, which ARE THERE in the Mahatma Letters and other 
Theosophical Society Writings, are not sui generis from the claimed 
mystical Mahatmas, who were constructed as their mouth pieces. These 
ideas were clearly collected piece-meal from much earlier Vaishnava 
Sanskrit writings, with nothing new or original added. In fact, much 
of the authentic value of the appropriated sources has been lost in 
the rough handling of their ideas by the Theosophical Masters, who 
were actually neophytes when compared to the real living masters of 
those orthodox "shasters" traditions."

You cover alot of material in this one quoted extract but what 
inquiring readers need are detailed examples that would illustrate 
and document what you are asserting as being true.

For example, consider the very first sentence above which reads: 

"Scholars of the Western Esoteric Traditions and 
sciences, and non-Indian Languages have shown that the Theosophical 
Society writings of HPB contained enormous amounts of material from 
other sources, that were not properly credited by her."

What do you mean by "not properly credited by her"?

>>>In the above statement I am referring to these other scholars' 
work and opinions. You have cited your own apologetic Theosophical 
sources below, which attempt to discredit the opinions of the 
scholars who have dealt with HPB's use of other writers' material in 
her work. I have specifically stated that my personal interest is 
in the use or misuse that HPB or the MAHATMAS made of literatures 
from my own Vaishnava Tradition. In the case of this use and abuse of 
Vedic-Vaishnava sources, there is clearly a lack of 'genealogical 
association' or historical honesty. Furthermore, the appropriated 
parts of Vaishnava thought incorporated into the Theosophical pseudo-
Buddhist thought system have been purged of their theistic content 
and removed from their theistic context to produce an atheistic 
impression. Whether one interprets HPB's use of non-'Hindu' sources 
as 'plagiarism' or not, her / the Mahatmas' use on Hindu sources was 
fraught with serious problems. Arguing over the term 'plagiarism' 
is a dodge that does not address these problems. 

>>>In the last part of my "What Were They The Masters of?" paper, I 
have cited the readily available edition (BBT) of the Roman 
transliterations, comparative English translations, and Sanskrit 
verses of the Bhagavat Purana (Srimad Bhagavatam). In this Sanskrit 
Vedic-Vaishnava source work, I have given the specific Cantos and 
Chapters where detailed information can be found on the YUGAS, 
MANVANTARAS, KALPAS, DAYS AND NIGHTS OF BRAHMA, THE MANUS and other 
Theosophical-related teachings. Any English reader can now examine 
these texts comparatively for themselves. That is all I want, for 
people to do what Valentin Tomberg and Fr, Schipflinger had the 
fearless open mindedness to do....to go to the ancient Eastern 
sources and face the testimony of the ancients there, instead of 
settling for a mere interpretation of ancient Eastern sources through 
Western esoteric traditions. 

>>>Regarding the 'science' of Theosophical race 'theory', much of 
this idea seems to be a Darwinian-based pseudo-scientific corruption 
of the Vedic conception of varna (natural divisions of giftedness in 
humanity) and the concept of different Manus (progenitors) of the ONE 
HUMAN RACE in various cosmic cycles, MANVANTARAS or YUGAS. The 
varnas originally had NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, and recognized only 
that within EVERY CIVILIZED SOCIETY there ideally are cooperative 
natural divisions of labor, with a healthy balance-in-trade of goods 
and services between these labor-organs of the social body. The 
organizing Brahmin-heads, protective Kshatriya-arms, productive 
Vaisha-agriculturalists and merchants as the body, and the 
industrious laborers and crafts people as the supportive legs, were 
all essential parts of the sacred sacramental social body of 
Purusha. No where in the early Vedic-Vaishnava sources is this 
social system associated with 'aryanist' racism or even birth-caste-
ism. As for the 'scientific' ideas about 'race' in Theosophy, later 
interpretations which attempt to re-present the original Theosophical 
Society teachings as devoid of racism are transparently full of 
sophistry and word-jugglery. However, I salute those theosophists 
and Theosophists who repudiate all forms of subtle and gross racism, 
and truly seek the equal brotherhood of all mankind. If these 
theosophists re-interpret and over-write the writings of HBP and the 
Mahatmas and later Theosophists, purging them of racism, so much the 
better for mankind. In the same why one must try to grasp and 
preserve and to perpetuate the best of everything that we as humans 
have inherited. This means fearlessly facing our inheritance and 
identifying those pathological things that should no longer be 
perpetuated. 

>>>About the pathological esoteric racial theory afflicting the world 
today, I would like to ask one question and supply the answer....

>>>Which is the gene for race ? The answer is that there is none. 

>>>There are individual genes for hair texture and color, skin color, 
bone structure, height, individual facial features, neuro-
organization (different KINDS of giftedness and intelligence) and 
every other SPECIFIC human feature. Every human body is made up of 
these INDIVIDUAL GENES. There is NO SINGLE RACE GENE ANYWHERE. 
There is one Human Race with a wide variety of individual features. 
When isolation causes restricted gene-pooling, the result is the 
emergence of a 'racial' type, because of a preponderance of these 
individual features. Still this is only a statistical increase in 
certain individual FEATURES, and the individuals are still all 
members of the SAME ONE HUMAN RACE. Anyone with the most basic grasp 
of biology can understand this. In the Victorian Era, with the rise 
of Darwinian species evolutionary ideas, before GENETICS was well 
understood, it was easy for racists to think of multiple races, not 
grasping that we are all the reproductively compatible members of a 
same biological family. The early evolutionists like HBP formed 
their racial ideas without any understanding of genetics. Today, we 
know that there is no race gene, no existence of separate races AS 
SUCH in the human family. There are only separate genes for 
individual characteristics like hair, skin tone, stature etc. No 
matter how hard today's Theosophists might try to redeem HPB and the 
Mahatmas' teachings on race, these still stand as obvious relics of 
19th century pseudo-scientific speculation. There was no race gene 
then, and there is none now. 

>>>I am very behind on my other writing, including a paper I need to 
write for the World Council of Elders of the Ancient Traditions and 
Cultures, which is holding their big mela in Mumbai India in 2003. I 
am an invited member of this Council, and have only a few more days 
to send in my paper for the conference. I will not be able to go due 
to my health, but would like for my paper to be in the conference 
souvenir, so I would like to get it in. Thus I bid farewell to you 
all, and wish you the very best in you continued quests. Below I 
suggest some reading which I think you will find stimulating 
regarding ancient East-West connections. 

>>>Study the Vaishnava Ayur Vedic Medical Tradition of Baladeva as 
Caraka, and then read Asclepius: Collection and Interpretation of the 
Testimonies/Volumes I and II in One by Emma J. Edelstein, Ludwig 
Edelstein (Contributor), Gary Ferngren (Introduction), 1998, from 
Johns Hopkins University Press. Then consider the cult of the 
Medical Buddha at YAKUSHIJI in Nara, Japan. The Deity IASAS / JESUS 
Asclepius, Son of Helios / ELI-YAHU / HERI-ASU, NOT the Homeric hero 
preferred by the Edelsteins, is the Alexandrian Great Physician 
Serapis and the Jesus Christ of Catholic GSS faith. 

>>>To understand that the Supreme God of the Semites, Afro-Egyptians 
and Greeks (Indo-Europeans) was the Supreme Deity of Heliopolitan 
Monotheism, please consider the evidence from Jewish Miniatures now 
available in the text reviewed below. All of the evidence in this 
volume supports my thesis regarding the connections between the Nilo-
Saharan Supreme Deity Heri-Asu (HORUS THE ELDER, HELIOS), the 
Semitic Deity ELI-YAHU and the Vaishnava, Shaivite and Pure Land 
Buddhist HARI, HARA and HARIH. 

>>>Best wishes to you all,

>>>Pax and Prema, 

>>>Bhakti Ananda Goswami


BELOW IS PROF. HESS'S REVIEW OF KEEL AND UEHLINGERS' IMPORTANT TEXT. 
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Volume 3 - 2000 

Keel, Othmar and Christoph Uehlinger
1998 Gods, Goddesses and Images of God in Ancient Israel. Translated 
by Thomas H. Trapp. Philadelphia: Fortress. Hardback, xiii + 466 pp. 
ISBN 0-8006-2789-X.

The German original of this work, when it appeared in 1992, was 
hailed as the most important work available on Israelite religion. 
Since then the publication of R. Albertz's History of Israelite 
Religion has provided an alternative standard for a critical 
reconstruction of the religious beliefs and practices of the people 
of the Old Testament. Meanwhile, the work of Keel and Uehlinger has 
lost none of its importance in translation. The vast number of 
drawings are reproduced as in the original. The value of this work 
can be found in its summary of all the extrabiblical evidence 
available to the authors in terms of ancient Palestinian cultic 
practices. The inscriptions and cult centers are included and the 
whole is placed in a chronological sequence according to established 
nomenclature, from Middle Bronze IIB (c. 1700-1550 B.C.), through the 
Late Bronze Age, the Iron I (1200-1000), the Iron II A (1000-925), II 
B (925-722), II C (722-586), and Iron III periods.

In addition, there is a thorough analysis of the pictorial art that 
reflects religious beliefs and practices. This comes primarily from 
the art of seals and seal impressions, of which the collection 
created by Keel includes some 8500. In fact, it is in this pictorial 
presentation that the authors make their distinctive contribution. No 
other publication has catalogued and produced a century by century 
survey of the representational art of ancient Palestine with a full 
awareness of the dominant forms and motifs, and how these develop and 
change. Thus while the Middle Bronze Age (the patriarchal period) 
emphasizes images of naked goddesses and eroticism, this is replaced 
in the Late Bronze Age (though never entirely) by protrayals of 
deities and princes as warriors. This is the period of the exodus and 
the beginnings of the conquest. Iron I, the period of the Judges, 
reveals dominant masculine imagery in the art while the female 
deities retreat to the arena of private worship and devotion. The 
tenth century, the period of the United Monarchy, saw the gradual 
disappearance of anthropomorphic representations of deities, an 
Egyptian trait, and an orientation toward the north where deities 
were represented with their symbols. The Iron II B period (c. 925 - 
c. 722 B.C.) finds Judah with few pictorial representations, except 
symbols of royalty adapted from Egypt and some local motifs. The 
northern kingdom adapted and contributed to the flourishing 
Phoenician artistic and religious traditions. When Judah remained 
alone independent (Iron II C) the images in the country decreased 
significantly (contrast, however, pillar based figurines and horse-
and-rider figurines). Elsewhere in Palestine Assyrian influenced art 
and religion predominated.

The close correlation of these artistic and religious developments 
with the biblical accounts of each period are treated broadly and 
sympathetically by the authors but not developed in any detail. This 
is probably for the best because it avoids the scholarly tendency to 
opt for one or another critical theory and superimpose it on the 
biblical period is a way unacceptable to everyone else. By focussing 
on the evidence and avoiding extensive biblical interpretations and 
correlations, Keel and Uehlinger succeed in providing a useful volume 
for everyone interested in the subject.

Of course, issues can be raised. The imagery of the naked goddesses 
and human couples, so popular in the Middle Bronze Age, may well have 
as much to do with fertility as with eroticism. The Late Bronze Age 
recounting of Palestinian religion must address the Mt. Ebal 
instalation. It is probably a sanctuary. Finally, the distinction 
between Asherah (Asherata) and Astarte in the Iron Age is difficult 
to identify and arguments that depersonify Yahweh's "asherah" and 
reduce it to a cult symbol are not persuasive.

Nevertheless, the methodology of the overall presentation is useful. 
As long as one remembers that all art without text is somewhat 
speculative in terms of interpretation, there is much here that will 
help to recreate the religion, life, and culture of the Old Testament 
world of ancient Israel.

Richard S. Hess
Professor of Old Testament
Denver Seminary


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