Theos-Talk Archives (October 2002 Message tt00153)

I'm a bit skeptical about some of your reasoning,
Steve, although you are right in saying that there is
no direct evidence that the bombing was specifically
targeted at Australians. But the point you make about
Muslims retaliating against non-Muslims for
essentially breaking their creed on their own land is
not a strong argument. Firstly, Bali is in fact a
Hindu island, not Muslim. Secondly, Australians and
other western foreigners have been going to Bali doing
western things for many many years. That the bomb
should have been detonated now, rather than say five
years ago, is more than coincidence. 

I would also like to make a few points about some of
the other issues that you have raised, in particular
European Australia's treatment of Indigenous Australia
and animal rights in regards to kangaroos. What we
have done to the Indigenous Australians is absolutely
deplorable and, yes, we deserve everything that we get
for this. Fortunately, attitudes have changed and the
situation is very much better for these people
although we still have a long way to go. In regards to
the kangaroos, it is attitudes such as the one you
yourself have adopted that is completely ruining the
land. Kangaroos, in general, are not endangered and in
fact are very much in plague proportions. When
Europeans created more grasslands and dotted the
landscape with dams and other watering holes the
kangaroo benefited largely. Early explorer's journals
would occassionally site a kangaroo, much like the
koala, giving the indication that these animals were
either very inconspicuous or quite rare. Now kangaroos
are everywhere. At dusk driving through the country
you will see hundreds of these animals darting from
the roadside. During drought, as the country is now,
kangaroos are very much in excess of the carrying
capacity of the land. I have been in the country
during a dry spell to see literally hundreds of
starving and dying kangaroos lying under a solitary
tree in a paddock. During these periods they can eat
all sorts of vegetation, effectively stripping the
land of erosion control as well as having other
ecological impacts. The most humane thing we can do
for these creatures is impose some form of population
control either in the form of futile culling or
allowing farmers to farm them and sell their produce
in the market. Allowing kangaroos in their supposed
pure state of nature is good for nobody. Besides, have
you ever tried kangaroo steak? Absolutely delicious!!
The best meat you'll ever have. Although I gather from
your email that you are vegetarian and probably abhore
these things I'm saying. Actually, these sentiments
would probably put me out of line with most people on
this chat group. But the point to remember is that
kangaroos are not rare, threatened or endangered,
they're not a sacred animal that no one should touch.
They number in their tens of millions, cause much
environmental damage, and make a fine meal indeed.


--- Steve Stubbs <stevestubbs@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- In theos-talk@y..., Mic Forster
> <micforster@y...> wrote:
> > But if Australia is going to solve the root cause
> of
> > this problem it has to address the root cause of
> the
> > problem. And the root cause is this: Australia is
> > supporting a murderous, hypercritic, unjust regime
> > that is George Bush and the United States
> government.
> 
> Well, I do not have any admiration for the Dense
> Prince but it has 
> not yet been established that this attack had
> anything to do with 
> Australians, except incidentally. I suspect the
> targets were 
> tourists who just happened to be Australians. Had
> they been Japanese 
> the terrorists would probably have targeted them
> anyway for being 
> tourists, in other words.
> 
> The site bombed was a nightclub in a Muslim country.
> My 
> understanding is, in Muslim countries many people
> find it offensive 
> to have night life, movie theatres, dancing, and
> especially alcohol 
> consumption. It is also not OK to be an infidel in
> their midst, 
> although if you are a few thousand miles away they
> probably would not 
> take note of you. Had they bombed a bus or a hotel
> the significance 
> might have been different. The fact that they chose
> a night club 
> seems to be the key here.
> 
> If you want to visit Indonesia, it might make sense
> to make yourself 
> look something like the locals (i.e., blend in), and
> avoid behaviors 
> which the locals will consider offensive, such as
> eating pig, 
> drinking alcohol, having a good time, and consorting
> with women. In 
> this case, to paraphrase Shakespeare, the fault is
> probably not in 
> our Bush but in ourselves. Get right in people's
> faces and offend 
> them long enough and something like this might
> happen. The most 
> practical solution to the problem from the point of
> view of 
> Indonesia's rulers may be to restructure the economy
> of Bali so that 
> it is not so heavily dependent on tourism. Then
> they can 
> chant "Australians go home!" and not regret the
> consequences if they 
> do just that. With 72% of the people there working
> in the tourist 
> industry there is likely to be real suffering on the
> island if 
> Australians selfishly avoid the place merely to keep
> from being blown 
> to bits or gunned down with automatic weapons fire. 
> With a 
> reorientation of the Balinese economy this would not
> happen in future.
> 
> I suspect that is the real root cause. You simply
> cannot go into a 
> foreign country year after year and offend the
> locals the way 
> Australians have innocently but nonetheless
> thoughtlessly done in 
> Indonesia and expect that there will be no
> retaliation ever. Since 
> it was done out of ignorance and not malice it
> should be simple 
> enough to correct. Just take a vacation somewhere
> else where you 
> will be welcome. In any event I was confused by
> your statement that 
> Bush is a murderer. (The statement that he is an
> idiot does not 
> confuse me at all.) I assume you mean someone is
> murdering the 
> Australian aborigines again and that Bush is
> responsible. I am a 
> fanatic about the rights of aborigines and kangaroos
> and share your 
> outrage if they are being killed yet again, but I
> had not read that 
> Bush was involved with that. Has that been reported
> in the papers? 
> Could you provide a link?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/