Theos-Talk Archives (June 2002 Message tt00131)

June 23, 2002

Dear Friend:

Re: corruption, and what Theosophy suggests as methods of dealing
with it. (My opinion)

The counter-questions and comments are very well taken if the
position, as one of the embodied mind is taken -- as we all have to
use that tool, (I mean the Kama-Manas -- the mind enwrapped in
passions, emotions and desires) as this is a period in which it
operates, and through which the Inner, the Divine man, the true
THINKER is forced to work.

Theosophy states that in the process of perfecting ones' self, the
lower Mind ( Kama-Manas) has to become the voluntary associate of the
HIGHER, the DIVINE MIND, resident in each of us and also called by
some THE HIGHER SELF. It has to begin as soon as possible to apply
the principles of virtue (to be founding the Higher Mind -- or
BUDDHI-MANAS) practically.

Now how can the power of the divine thought of the TRUE IMMORTAL MAN
be invoked ?

I did not say to do nothing against "corruption." I would say
positively: If Karma brings you an instance of corruption then you
can say you have a duty to fight to have it exposed and redressed.

Corruption cannot stand exposure, but one has to have FACTS AT HAND to
do this. Without such facts that can be presented to any one, we are
powerless. We can verbally protest, but the FACTS alone are the final
desiderata.

If you don't fight against corruption, then you connive to its
continuing. That is not one of our duties. One should also remember
that evil can never survive the light of day. The evil man always
pretends to be virtuous, and to act in a rect, moral manner.

The corrupt official is a subordinate of one or more supervising
individuals or entities. All such independent entities have a certain
judicial standing, they exist by statute and free election. And all
are framed on rules and regulations which can be invoked publicly in a
case of corrupt obstruction. If persuasion and the threat of exposure
is disregarded, then it is necessary to use the hammer of justice and
demand that an unjust situation be exposed and reversed. The case can
be presented before one or preferably a group of senior officials, and
other interested parties at the municipal, county, state and national
levels. You say politics. I say humanity. Politics are always part
right in ideal, and are usually part wrong in execution. How can we
have final justice unless all agree to practice sincerity, honesty and
truth. Those have real power, and no amount of argument from the
"lower manasic" point of view is fund to be very helpful.

Yes even to the death. I honor both great men and I knew and met
Gandhi personally years ago and was deeply impressed by the sincerity
and honesty he showed forth. I then met Coretta King many years later
and was also impressed with her. But knowing a fine and upright
person means that we can also be upright and fearless. What keeps us
fearful? many things. Are we prepared to submit to that? Now that
is a test leveled squarely at us and our integrity, as a member of our
society.

I would say as a student of Theosophy that death is no punishment.
Rebirth of the Spiritual and deathless SOUL is a fact. This is not
said t be permissive. It merely means we ought to consider the end
result of any situation we are in.

If we stat from the high ground of being an immortal, the threats made
by those who live on the "dark side," have little worth. Let's say
you find yourself i a situation where your loved and dear ones are
threatened unless you comply with some illicit action. What to do ?
This is a horrible situation. But it has, and embodies the following
truth: The one who threatens depends upon your fear to secure your
compliance. He also depends on your belief that he will honor his
promises if you comply. Is this so? How can you trust any one who is
already proved to be dishonest? How do you know that the will comply
with their promises after you do what they want? In extreme cases the
promise of torture or death is employed and has historically been
used. it is an extreme instance.

Suppose you comply. Then does the situation vanish ? Are you sure
that you will have your loved ones released? or will all be killed
because the perpetrator is fearful. of being later recognized and
identified. Dead lips tell no tales. I know this is horrible to
contemplate.

Theosophy suggests that we preview all possibilities, and then shape
our response.

A carjacker gets into your car and tries to compel you to drive, with
a weapon threatening you. You hold the wheel. You actually hold his
life hostage depending on how you drive. So it can be compliance or a
stand-off.

There is not a simple single event in life that does not present such
decisions. In these cases the threat is extreme. Are we ready for
such an emergency? What are the real moral tests?

As far as I can see Theosophy presents us with the principles of
living over a long range of several life times. Are we to
investigate, and then trust? What criteria are we to develop in
advance of a crisis?

One thing is certain: no crisis comes to any one of us unless we have
previously generated the Karma for it, wither earlier in this life or
in some earlier life. Is it again a meeting of victims and
aggressors? How can the matter be resolved? Are we prepared in
advance for a set of circumstances in which our "Higher Mind" has a
key to control?

Well that's my opinion as I would base it on Theosophical concepts and
philosophy. See if it appeals to you.

Best wishes,

Dallas

==================================
-----Original Message-----

From: Mor Sufi
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 7:29 AM
To:
Subject: CORRUPTION -- Question, that tricks us...opinions ?

Hi Dallas and all,

A view:
Dallas wrote: "No, I do not answer a question with another to be
"cute." "
My anwser to Dallas: Well Dallas I am cute. Well at least I like to
think so. It is just to bad, that you - as you seem to say - are not
<:-)

Dallas wrote:
"No one can dictate a single procedure to anyone. Neither to a group,
> nor to an individual. If that is done their "free-will" may be
> impaired. Recommendations for individual consideration are
valuable,
> and if given without coercion, they can be adopted after scrutiny.
> The individual scrutiny is creative and analytically applied in the
> interests of accuracy, impartiality, and universality."

My answer to Dallas: "None is dictating anyone here. I am protesting
against - political corruption and so did HPB. That is what I am
doing. You it seems obvoiusly are interested in doing just NOTHING
towards corruption. I encouraged readers to 'do matter' and 'do mind'
and do something against corruption and political corruption - and
that is political lawmakers. And I show that HPB did that by
protesting in her article "Is Theosophy a RELIGION?" and she also did
it elsewhere. And Dallas seems in his email to be almost not
interested in doing anything all about it."

Dallas wrote:
"This, the providing of rules and regulations, is the basis for all
> sects and political parties. It has a limited use, but the Karmic
> responsibility assumed by the "originator," the "leader," the
"chief,"
> the "President," etc... is always a great one. Prophets of the TRUE
> alone assume this responsibility with a knowledge of the "GOOD" that
> can be derived by individuals, who assume thereafter a self-induced
> decision to apply for themselves the independent study of the laws
and
> rules of GREAT NATURE."

My answer to Dallas: "Well Dallas that is just an opinion. It is maybe
true, and maybe not."

Dallas wrote:
"This is why BROTHERHOOD is emphasized. In fact when all is resolved
> to fundamental basics, that is the only way for cooperative life.
> Assistance is the normal method of inter-service that the Universe
> expects us to abide by. We have to learn to act as IMMORTALS in a
> vast field of co-existing and interacting IMMORTALS. It is a vast
> brotherhood, whether we recognize and like it, or not.
>
> This is what I have learned from Theosophy. I hope this will be of
> help to others if there will consider and see if it is reasonable."

My Answer to Dallas: "But Dallas if you see your child do something
bad. Then you tell the child, what is bad and what not. And
politicians and even socalled christian politicians who make prayer in
their church just before killing muslims - should also be adressed if
they do something wrong. Because if not, bad actions continues."

Both Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. did that - they protested.
And both were killed !
Is it so, that you Dallas think that both Ghandi and Martin Luther
King Jr. did wrong ???

Just to inform - my email has the title: "Theos-World Re: Question,
that tricks us...opinions ?".

To anyone on the list: Feel free to comment.


from
Sufi with peace and love...










----- Original Message -----
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: "AA-B-Study" <study@blavatsky.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 2:39 PM
Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Question, that tricks us...opinions ?


> June 23 2002
>
> Dear Friend:
>
> No, I do not answer a question with another to be "cute."
>
> I recognize that it is only be mutual exchanges, by "conference,'
that
> any advance, individually, can be achieved.
>
> Look at our educational experience. We have been all, successively
> placed in a school medium at some time. We have been placed in a
> series of progressive classes where knowledge is made available to
us
> in steps. We are expected to remember a good deal of that as data.
> So our minds are "stretched' and taught, by one method or another,
to
> amass memories and to sharpen and improve them. There are few
courses
> that are designed to tell us how to use this mass of facts.
>
> Learning to THINK is a part of education that induces logic and
> discrimination to develop as faculties we can use to process the
facts
> we have received.
>
> Let look at the divisions of classes we are given:
>
> DATA: History, Geography, our Language as grammar, The Science of
> Observation, Physiology and Anatomy, Chemistry, Physics,
Engineering,
> Astronomy, rules and facts that are always provable and invariable.,
> etc...
>
> THINK ABOUT: all subjects that employ Creativity, and individual
> effort as an essential to development -- such as : Mathematics,
> Geometry, Music, Art, Logic, Ethics, Discovery, Writing, Painting,
> Drawing, Interpretive arts, etc.... Add here the most essential
> capacity, and the will to review all DATA and given Facts, for the
> securing of a personal assurance of their truth and accuracy.
>
> It seems to me always imperative and most important, at all stages,
to
> recognize that:
>
> No one can dictate a single procedure to anyone. Neither to a
group,
> nor to an individual. If that is done their "free-will" may be
> impaired. Recommendations for individual consideration are
valuable,
> and if given without coercion, they can be adopted after scrutiny.
> The individual scrutiny is creative and analytically applied in the
> interests of accuracy, impartiality, and universality.
>
> This, the providing of rules and regulations, is the basis for all
> sects and political parties. It has a limited use, but the Karmic
> responsibility assumed by the "originator," the "leader," the
"chief,"
> the "President," etc... is always a great one. Prophets of the TRUE
> alone assume this responsibility with a knowledge of the "GOOD" that
> can be derived by individuals, who assume thereafter a self-induced
> decision to apply for themselves the independent study of the laws
and
> rules of GREAT NATURE.
>
> Loyalty in any human mind, invariably has to be a matter of
> free-self-determination. Choice and motive are the inner tools that
> every one of us, men-minds have to develop and use. They are innate
> to all of us without exception.
>
> Many think that have to be "loyal." True, it is a fine quality.
But
> discrimination demands we find out exactly what we are devoting our
> LOYALTY to. Our Karma develops from self-choice. Choice springs
from
> MOTIVE. And motive is always a matter of individual responsibility
> and its consequent KARMA -- which is either destructive and "evil,"
> or, constructive, and "good."
>
> Let us suppose that we think we are ignorant. We will not be able
to
> know the extent of our ignorance until we sit down and mediate on
what
> we know and what our innate powers are. What is our Will ? Where
> does it reside? How does it work ? A recognition of areas of
> ignorance implies there is in us something that is not at all
> ignorant, and further, has the tools (mental tools) to use to find
> TRUTH and FACTS.
>
> We have in general two choices:
>
> 1. The decision to remain ignorant, and seek for some kind of a
group
> or society, political party or church -- and try to shed our
> responsibility by accepting and devoting ourselves to following the
> rules and regulations they have set up ( are they really practiced
?)
> by such a group, or,
>
> 2. Independently finding out what our own nature and capacities are.
>
> And in this search, we either assume we are either:
>
> 1. transcient and evanescent mortals bound to the limitations of our
> present body and personality, (which disappears at death) or,
>
> 2. we perceive within ourselves that we are fragments of the
IMMORTAL
> DIVINE and UNIVERSAL ONE SELF. If we can perceive the justice and
> reasonableness of this, then we KNOW that we have the "god-like"
> powers to choose and to know the TRUTH of all things, and to
> appreciate (after discovery) : IDEALS.
>
> This is what THEOSOPHY as a philosophy that is scientific, logical
and
> religious does for each and every one who decides to become a
THINKER.
> We learn to integrate our IMPERISHABLE SELF with that of the world
we
> live in, and take active responsibility for what we do, in using our
> representative: the "embodied mind," in continuing to use rote and
> custom.
>
> We discover by self-examination, whether the "rote" and the
"customs"
> we live by, are good, fair and impersonally impartial, -- valuable
> equally for others as for ourselves. We learn to accurately
> discriminate between virtue that is "all-loving" and all-giving,"
and
> vice, which is selfish, acquisitive, impatient, authoritarian,
proud,
> etc... --- all restrictive powers and attitudes of isolation, that
> divide us from our fellows.
>
> The Rules and Laws of Nature can be shown to be universally
impartial,
> and, are always cooperative. They are the basis for all growth in
> intelligence of the consciousness that is always resident in each
> "form" or "personal being."
>
> Therefore, and since the method of instruction that NATURE adopts
> uniformly, is by means of self-determination, we increasingly learn
to
> use the position that we can "stand on our own feet." and we grant
> always in action and decision, the right to others to do likewise.
We
> act as though justice and freedom rules the Universe, and we expect
> others to know this, and do likewise.
>
> This is why BROTHERHOOD is emphasized. In fact when all is resolved
> to fundamental basics, that is the only way for cooperative life.
> Assistance is the normal method of inter-service that the Universe
> expects us to abide by. We have to learn to act as IMMORTALS in a
> vast field of co-existing and interacting IMMORTALS. It is a vast
> brotherhood, whether we recognize and like it, or not.
>
> This is what I have learned from Theosophy. I hope this will be of
> help to others if there will consider and see if it is reasonable.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dallas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mor Sufi
> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 12:14 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Question, that tricks us...opinions ?
>
>
> Hi Dallas and all of you,
>
> A view:
>
>
> Well Dallas now you did it again answering my question with
questions
> of your own.
> The below answer of yours isn't really an answer.
> To put it short you are sort of saying : Act wise.
>
> I you read the email you answered you will certainly see, that you
> didn't really answer my questions. Well, in fact - not at all.
>
> So do matter and do mind.
> And allright act wisely, but let us do our best.
> And not as now, do really almost nothing at all on the issues
> mentioned in my below email.
> Well, do something towards corruption and also towards - political
> corruption.
>
> Ghandi did something.
> Do your very best.
> But always help and never hurt, and at least seek not to hurt if you
> can't help.
>
> To all of you: Feel free to comment on the issues and do your best.
>
>
> from
> Sufi
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




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