Theos-Talk Archives (February 2002 Message tt00326)

Steve:

Thanks for the response. I can understand how one little post could 
get lost in the barrage. 

You made a statement that HPB said the she and the Masters used 
botanical substances and I asked where she said that. You say in Isis 
Unveiled, and so did someone else, and I asked where in Isis, hoping 
for a page number so I could read such statements for myself without 
having to search the whole book and then ask is this it, is this it? 
I was sent one reference with page number, looked it up, and made a 
response. 

I did go through the archives of this list and found many references, 
newspaper articles, interviews, people recounting things they said 
she said, things they said she did. But what I was looking for was 
what HPB said on this subject. If you are basing your statement on 
second hand statements (things other people said or wrote about HPB) 
then your statement should more accurately read "people say that HPB 
said..." 

I have read a lot of the writings of HPB but I never saw anywhere 
where she said what you say she did. I wanted to read her words. 

I agree with you that customs and standards have changed a lot since 
the 19th Century, and that when we talk about using drugs now, the 
phrase has a very different impact than it would have 150 years ago. 
Personally I have no idea what substances HPB used or didn't use for 
what purposes, since I wasn't there to witness it. But I do know that 
people have been accusing her of all sorts of unlikely things (things 
that in my opinion ignore the facts of her life and work) since she 
appeared on the scene, this one being unlikely because of the fairly 
common theosophical teachings on stimulants and narcotics, and I for 
one would prefer to read the primary material instead of relying on 
the statements of people who may or may not have had agendas which 
led them to misunderstand what they saw or heard, whether 
intentionally or not. 

However, that being said, and taking into consideration that your 
idea of historical facts may not be the same as mine, you are 
certainly free, as far as I am concerned, to draw whatever 
conclusions you like from the information you have obtained. I just 
want it to be clear who said what. That is the only way that everyone 
can have a fair chance to form their own opinions. Surely we aren't 
in the business of trying to convince anyone one way or the other, 
are we?

Regards,
Adelasie



On 10 Feb 2002 at 10:21, Steve Stubbs wrote:

> Adelasie:
> 
> Unfortunately, the volume of mail that is being
> generated on this list has gotten so voluminous it is
> impossible for me to read all of it, so I did not
> catch your challenge on the first go round.
> 
> The evidence that Blavatsky. Olcott, and the mahatmas
> used botanical assistance in achieving altered states
> of consciousness has been outlined in numerous
> previous emails, and there are numerous other
> references which can easily be found, especially in
> ISIS UNVEILED. If you want to chase all of this down,
> I would suggest consulting the archives. Some of
> these substances were undoubtedly those sold by P.B.
> Randolph under brand names such as "Dhoula Bel" and so
> forth. Lord only knows what they had in them.
> 
> This sort of thing was perfectly legal back then and
> probably will be legal again when the cost of trying
> to impose our will on others by force becomes so
> egregious that we collectively decide to shut down the
> campaign against recreational chemicals. It is
> extremely odd that this opinion seems to be shared by
> rabid plutocrats like William F. Buckley with folks
> all across the political spectrum into the far left
> when they agree on nothing else. The main opposition
> to ending this "war" comes of course from those who
> are employed by it and who would have to seek
> employment elsewhere were the laws changed. I don't
> blame them for wanting to protect their livelihoods. 
> However, it makes no sense for Theosophical
> Fundamentalists to insist that their objects of
> personal worship must have conformed to the standards
> of 2002 C.E. in 1875. What they were doing in 1875
> was legal then and in 2075 it will be legal again. 
> The historical facts are there. Let's go with them.
> 
> Steve
> 
> --- adelasie <adelasie@surfari.net> wrote:
> > Dear Brigitte,
> > 
> > I took your suggestion and went through the archives
> > searching for 
> > some primary source information to support Steve's
> > statement that HPB 
> > said she and the Masters used "botanical
> > substances." I didn't find 
> > any. There are quotes from people like Deveney,
> > Godwin, and Rawson, 
> > but nowhere do I find such a statement from HPB
> > herself, as Steve 
> > maintains exists. 
> > 
> > Steve has not responded to my request, but you have
> > been very 
> > responsive, so I may as well ask you, is this the
> > only reference you 
> > have to support this theory, the statements about
> > HPB by others, the 
> > reports of others about what she said and did? That
> > is not quite the 
> > same thing as being able to produce something she
> > wrote on the 
> > subject that supports your theory. 
> > 
> > You offered the paragraph from Isis Unveiled in
> > support of your 
> > theory, and it is the only primary material provided
> > so far by you 
> > that has a page number included so I could look it
> > up for myself. 
> > 
> > You of course are welcome to entertain any theory
> > you like, and if 
> > you are satisfied to hold such a theory without any
> > solid evidence to 
> > back it up, that is your affair. But I have a
> > different theory, which 
> > may as well be stated as well.
> > 
> > We all know that anyone can say anything. Sometimes
> > people have an 
> > agenda so strong that they actually manufacture
> > evidence to "prove" 
> > their point. This has been the case all along with
> > HPB, as is 
> > documented very well, for instance, in Cranston's
> > book about HPB, and 
> > it is not surprising that she was treated in this
> > way, since she 
> > unselfishly devoted her life to helping others, us,
> > in fact. People 
> > who behave like that have the power to infuriate
> > almost everyone. She 
> > was not the first and I don't suppose she will be
> > the last. 
> > 
> > HPB wrote about a great many things, including
> > mystical practices of 
> > ancient civilizations, but that does not mean that
> > she used drugs. 
> > Drug use is a pretty potent subject nowadays with a
> > negative 
> > connotation, when we use these substances for
> > recreation. But in 
> > ancient times, such things were used for religious
> > purposes. Even 
> > tobacco is viewed by Native Americans as a sacred
> > plant. But 
> > theosophy does not recommend the use of stimulants
> > and narcotics 
> > because they have a debilitating effect upon the
> > centers of the body 
> > which will be needed when our evolution proceeds
> > further. This is not 
> > to condemn others for using these substances. If you
> > are to be free 
> > to entertain and carry on with your very odd
> > opinions and theories 
> > about theosophy, I don't see why someone else should
> > be condemned for 
> > his preferences. But so far I haven't seen any
> > primary evidence that 
> > HPB said that she or the Masters used drugs, and I
> > am assuming that 
> > is what Steve was referring to by the term
> > "botanical substances."
> > 
> > Adelasie
> > 
> > On 10 Feb 2002 at 1:06, bri_mue wrote:
> > 
> > > Adelasie,what you qoute below is only a small
> > fraction from what I
> > > send,including the responses of Steve.
> > > 
> > > I do not know why you selectivly and out of
> > context quote only this
> > > small portion , but if you are willing to go back
> > and add together 
> > > what I posted on this matter on theos-talk , I'l
> > be glad to have a
> > > discussion with you about it. The way you choose
> > to present it now
> > > however is a distortion, since it is only a
> > fraction of the quotes and
> > > the remarks from first Steve (who started it on
> > Daniel Caldwells
> > > invitation) added to by me, also on Daniel's
> > invitation or schall we
> > > call chalenge.
> > > 
> > > All these mails can be viewed and copied at: 
> > > 
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/
> > > 
> > > by clicking the end Nov.and early Dec. posts.
> > > Brigitte
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
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