Theos-Talk Archives (February 2002 Message tt00029)

Dear Brigitte,

Are there actually published statements by HPB to the effect that, 
as Steve said,

HPB did in fact use botanical substances, as she
> > > > said herself, and her masters did as well, as she
> > > > says.

You have offered an edited version of statements by Olcott on this 
subject, but so far you have not produced any statements by HPB. 
Perhaps Steve will respond.

Adelasie

On 3 Feb 02, at 16:34, bri_mue wrote:

> Adelasie: However, Steve did say,
> 
> HPB did in fact use botanical substances, as she
> > > > said herself, and her masters did as well, as she
> > > > says.
> 
> Brigitte: We did have a previous discussion on this list on this
> subject, in fact there is a relation with the drugs to astral
> projection in the early TS and mirror gasing. In fact Steve wrote:
> 
> There is plenty of reason to believe (1) Blavatsky
> used mirror gazing to develop her clairvoyance, and
> (2) was at least familiar with Randolph's manual of
> mirror gazing entitled SEERSHIP, whether he was her
> original teacher or not.
> 
> Consider the following quote from THE TRANSACTIONS OF
> THE BLAVATSKY LODGE:
> 
> "If the Astral Light is collected in a cup or metal
> vessel hy will;power, and the eyes fixed on
> some point in it with a strong will to see, a waking
> vision or 'dream' is the result, if the person is at
> all sensitive. The reflections in the Astral Light are
> seen better with closed eyes, and, in sleep, still
> more distinctly. From a lucid state, vision becomes
> translucid; from normal organic consciousness it rises
> to a transcendental state of consciousness."
> 
> This is clearly a reference to mirror gazing, using a
> metal surface instead of a glass mirror. Now consider
> the following from mahatma letter #127:
> 
> "The methods used for developing lucidity in our
> chelas may be easily used by you. Every temple has a
> dark room, the north wall of which is entirely covered
> with a sheet of mixed metal, chiefly copper, very
> highly polished, with a surface capable of reflecting
> in it things, as well as a mirror. The chela sits on
> an insulated stool, a three-legged bench placed in a
> flat-bottomed vessel of thick glass, - the lama
> operator likewise, the two forming with the mirror
> wall a triangle. A magnet with the North Pole up is
> suspended over the crown of the chela's head without
> touching it. The operator having started the thing
> going leaves the chela alone gazing on the wall, and
> after the third time is no longer required."
> 
> Here again we have a clear reference to mirror gazing,
> again using a metal surface for a mirror. The
> experiment indicates considerable western influence. 
> We now know that this setup did not in fact exist in
> "every temple" in Tibet. The idea of using a mirror
> of mixed metals comes from Paracelsus, as Hartmann
> showed. The magnet also indicates a western
> influence.
> 
> Now notice the statement that mirror gazing techniques
> constitute "the methods used for developing lucidity
> in our chelas." That is pretty explicit. That is a
> category in which Blavatsky would have included
> herself. Notice also the statement that "the chela
> sits on an insulated stool, a three legged
> bench placed in a flat bottomed vessel of thick
> glass." That idea, that the seer should sit in a
> chair electrically insulated from the ground using
> glass, comes from Randolph's book SEERSHIP.
> 
> Now consider this piece of doggerel, from mahatma
> letter # 19:
> 
> "No curtain hides the spheres Elysian,
> Nor these poor shells of half transparent dust;
> For all that blinds the spirit's vision
> Is pride and hate and lust." (Not for publication)
> 
> That is given unattributed and appears unattributed in
> Randolph's book as well.
> Brigitte: Blavatsky definetly believed she "needed" the mirror 
> because that 
> is the way her teacher tought it to her and indications are that is
> where the drugs among others where used for. Below find the story
> posted by Daniel Caldwell, edited by Steve so as to show only those
> portions which indicate that herbs were involved in the experience:
> 
> "We took cigars. ... I was stupefied. ... They sat
> there and quietly smoked their cigars. ... I just sat
> and looked at them in a sort of stupid daze. They
> seemed to enjoy my surprise. ... Then the elder man
> took out of his pocket a painted lacquered case. ...
> The box exhaled a strong spicy aromatic odor much like
> sandal wood but still not just that. Whatever I
> wished to see, he said I need simply think of. ...
> When I seemed to be growing inquisitive, some power
> prevented my seeing anything. ... I stood transfixed
> looking from one to another in dumb amazement. ...
> Madam said, ... 'What's the matter? You must be
> crazy.' ... Madam said they had been with her for more
> than an hour. ... In a half hour from the time the two
> men left, there was not a drop of moisture in the room
> nor a shade of dampness to indicate that there had
> been a shower."
> 
> In this quote we see evidence of herbs burning, herbs
> contained within a lacquered case which was held to
> Olcott's nose, visual hallucinations, tactile
> hallucinations (the room was wet), profuse sweating,
> time distortion, loss of consciousness, cognitive
> impairment, and stupefaction. Can any reasonable
> person read this story and believe that there were no
> botanical products involved in this wonder? 
> Especially interesting is that these drugs are the
> means of "the production of flowers as the adepts do
> it." That clearly indicates that they used these
> substances to produce visual hallucinations and
> presumably insights.
> As for the Hartmann letter, the mahatma letters
> frankly admit most (but not necessarily all) of them
> were delivered in a normal manner and palmed off on
> people. Blavatsky frankly admitted most (but not all)
> of them were written, not by the men whose signatures
> they bear, but by "amanuensis chelas", i.e., herself
> and Damodar. If there is a paranormal aspect to most
> of them it is therefore her belief that she was
> inspired with their thoughts or did automatic writing
> or whatever. That said, it does not seem to me to be
> good historical technique to insist that the Hartmann
> letter was materialized. A letter could only be
> assumed to have been materialized if someone who is
> credible (not Leadbeater, in other words) actually
> witnessed the process. Hodgson quoted an account by
> Olcott of this.
> 
> One thing is for sure: figuring where the baloney ends
> and the truth begins is an excellent exercise in
> developing critical reasoning ability which serves one
> well in assessing other issues in other areas of
> life.
> 
> Steve 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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