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RE: Theos-World On the Atman - to Peter

Nov 15, 2001 05:51 AM
by dalval14

Wednesday, November 14, 2001

Dear Friend Nos:

Forgive me for butting in on your exchange with Peter. The
subject has always interested me, so may I offer some comments ?

When as you suggest we try to reduce our material orientation and
instrumentation to a focus aimed at identifying the possible
"building-blocks" in Nature of the extremely SMALL, we ought to
consider equally the EXTREMELY LARGE. In his Unified Field
Theory, Einstein, I believe tried to do this so the unity between
the two extremes would be bridged in a logical manner.

Man's capacity for perception is actually unlimited when
reinforced and amplified in both directions, and the PERCEIVER in
MAN (perhaps it is the MIND) is exactly mid-way between the two.

>From the MATERIALISTIC point of view one may theoretically
descend in size to the level of the final physical vibration as
you did. The last "wave-form."

But you did not eliminate the OBSERVER, the final VIBRATION, the
MEDIUM in which vibration takes place and the VIBRATING OBJECT.
This makes 4 things essential -- and I do not see how any of
those can be eliminated. Can you? I admit Mind and THOUGHT are
non-material and "subjective." But then anything that we place
into our Mind, automatically becomes non-material and
"subjective." "Subjectivity" is the reflection of the OBJECTIVE
on some different kind of substance with different qualities,
rules and presence in that medium -- or am I wrong ?

Wave-forms may also be considered as fields of force, but as long
as they are "fields" they have a CENTER. Our Minds make of the
"waves" FORMS. How and Why? Is that because this is the only
way in which we can understand them with our
material-brain-limited thought ?

Returning to the analysis of the "very small:"

This center is a point of Force or of directed Power. The object
CENTER is surrounded by some kind of FIELD or a MEDIUM . The
POWER is projected spherically and uniformly -- its ultimate
cessation cannot be registered - once transmitted it becomes a
part of the UNIVERSAL.

Theosophy views Matter as a condensation of the intangible and
invisible (to our material senses) ASTRAL SUBSTANCE.

Astral Substance in its turn may be considered as the substantial
product of the universal LIFE CURRENTS that pervade all SPACE
(perhaps we might think of them as the countless attractive and
repelling Forces that exist in the realm of the atom and the
molecule as well as in universal astronomical SPACE -- also
unlimited. [Is this not the problem that troubled Einstein in
his search for a "universal CONSTANT which would serve to unite
all and thus provide for the Unified Field Theory ? ]

Theosophy is not limited in its concepts by materiality, which it
perceives as the dregs of the whole seven-fold Universe. Th
sequence seems to run as follows:

1 SPIRIT -- A universal receptacle of all Laws, rules,
truths, events, timeless and eternal all Laws, rules, truths,
model for
Penetrates all space.
Perceiver alive in some form -- as in a
2 WISDOM acquired from universal and timeless experience --
recorded in imperishable characters of eternal energy/force
3 MIND / THOUGHT the capacity to examine change and record
it. A capacity which is both mutable and stable and perceives
change, while in one aspect it is changeless.
4. Needs, Wants, Desires, Rejections, (all that involves the
isolation of the individual Perceiver alive in some form -- as in
a physical body)
5. Attractive and Repelling currents of influence and
magnetism. Penetrates all space.
6 Electro-magnetic subtle substance which serves as the
model for
7 Physical substance whether sub-atomic or supra galactic

So, in order to perceive illusion (Maya) one has to be in a
position that is NOT MOVED or AFFECTED by ILLUSION. If not, then
the Maya concept cannot exist -- and yet, it does. So if it is
to be thought of its CONTRAST is necessarily present along with
some perceptive ability of faculty that can SEE BOTH.

I wonder if this makes sense to you?



-----Original Message-----
From: nos
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 4:59 PM
Subject: On the Atman

My interpretation of Maya :

If you can change your POV and go down down dwon to the
level and then slow down - you could observe that the particle
make up the physical plane are in fact not particles at all but
waveforms then slow down those waveforms even more until they
stop - and
hence there is nothing there - without the vibration caused by
differentiation (mental between opposites etc) the physical plane
does not exist. Whether it still exists like quantum potential is
course open for debate but pointless as you can only experience
the POV
you are in - it's like talking about non-connected dimensions if
have no relationship or interaction with this plane then they
simply do
not exist (whether they do or not). Lol


My other interpretation : My beautiful 4 year old daughter....

|-----Original Message-----
|From: Gerald Schueler []
|Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2001 11:19 AM
|Subject: Theos-World On the Atman - to Peter
|<<<Not cruel, a fair observation. Why should I scoff? What
|place does that have in these discussions if we are both
|serious students? You criticised Dallas for quoting HPB out
|of context and yet when asked to supply the context you quote
|a two sentences from the entire Secret Doctrine and Collected
|Writings. I think "context" requires more. I can't speak for
|Dallas, but yes I was aware of those two sentences. The
|difference between us is that you seem to be taking them
|literally and at face value. I would prefer to look a little
|deeper, along with understanding the context in which those
|statements were made.>>>
|Peter, we all quote her out of context, and my one and only
|point was that we can pretty much quote her to suit ourselves.
|If the quote, to the effect that matter and spirit are both
|maya, was meant to be literal, then Blavatsky was aware of,
|and she accepted, one of the "secret" Dzogchen teachings. If
|the quote was not literal and meant something else, then she
|was not aware of Dzogchen and does not subscribe to its
|teachings. I think that this is pretty much what it all comes
|down to. In spite of your arguments, I prefer to think that
|she was initiated, and that she gave that tidbit out
|<<<<You are certainly welcome to that view and I have no
|desire to change it. But we are trying to establish what HPB
|is saying. Her view is that ATMA is not a maya and that it is
|one with Parabrahm. Thus over and over again we find her
|saying similar things as:>>>
|Peter, If Atma is not maya, then a few logic problems will
|surface. Does Atma change over time? If so, then it can't be
|permanent and it must be maya because everything effected by
|space or time is mayavic (or do you have another definition of
|maya, as well?). If not, then Atma must be above maya and must
|not be subject to time or space. If this is so, then I can't
|see what the "radiation" and "ray" and "emanation" business is
|all about. What is the purpose of evolution, and what is
|evolving in space-time? I think that how we answer this
|question will define Atma for us. My interpretation of
|Blavatsky is that there is a non-dual non-divisible Monad
|outside of space-time and completely changeless/permanent. It
|sends out a "ray" into space-time(how it does this is pretty
|much a faith-based "initial assumption") which is, or at some
|point becomes, Atma.
|I guess my real problem is that I am sick to death of the
|illogic I see from many Theosophists, and from much of the
|Theosophical literature, who seem like that say stuff without
|logically thinking about it. Now, I realize that all of this
|stuff is manas exorcizes, but I think the very least we can
|all do is to try to come up with a logical system (and there
|will ALWAYS be initial assumptions that we will have to make,
|but I mean logical within those assumptions). For just one
|example, is a "monad" indivisible or not?
|<<<There isn't anything esoteric about saying Atma is a Maya.
|Nor does HPB say it is a Maya, as far as I can determine.>>
|Well, she does give us hints. And there is a danger. It is one
|that Buddhists are all too familiar with - the (false) claim
|that they are nihilists, that they ultimately believe in
|<<<I think you have missed the point. HPB is quoting Wilson
|because what he says is in agreement with the view she is
|putting in the Secret Doctrine, i.e. beyond ISWARA (spirit,
|Cosmic Ideation, the collective Dhyanis) is ATMA around whose
|pavilions is MAYA. That's why she draws on Hindu and Vedanta
|when she wants to consolidate the view she is presenting.>>>
|So Atma surrounds itself in mayavic "pavilions" but somehow
|is itself not mayavic? It seems very illogical to me to say
|that Atma is "real" while it is located on a cosmic plane of
|illusion. If Atma is so real and permanent, then what is a
|"monadic ray?"
|<<A raindrop is not 'equal' to the ocean but it is identical
|in nature. >>
|Not a good analogy. Not the same in nature at all, just the
|same in material composition. The nature of a raindrop is
|separation and indivuation.
|<<Using analogy, we might call it an emanation of the ocean.
|It is not the essence of the drop that is identical in nature
|to the ocean, it is the drop itself which is identical in
|nature to the ocean. There is no need to add an extra layer
|of essence between the nature of the drop and the Ocean, which
|is what you do. Atman and Parabrahmam, Atman and Brahm,
|Tathagata and Buddha Nature are said to be one. The Maya is
|that they are two different things when all the time they are
|of the same nature.>>>
|OK, Peter, lets go with this. I would define "maya" a bit
|differently than you have above, and maybe that is part of our
|differences here. I would define the raindrop itself as maya,
|and I would say that this raindrop had no "self" at all, no
|reality except in the sense of a conventional one. The idea
|that the raindrop is different from the ocean is not maya, but
|is ignorance - the arigpa that I mentioned in another post.
|Why? Because they are on different planes of existence - the
|ocean exists in a different place.
|Lets say that the raindrop exists in the air falling down from
|a cloud and is falling toward the ocean, its ultimate destiny.
|Both are made of water, but we experience them, at least
|during the fall, as two separate things. We think that the
|raindrop actually exists, and that it actually falls down, and
|that one day in the far future, it will merge with the ocean
|below. My take on such an analogy is this: the raindrop is
|maya and the fall is maya, and our experience of these as two
|separate and distinct things in space-time is our inherent
|<<<Maybe we could extend the analogy (but not too far!) and
|say a large 'drop' (Paramatman, or later a Dhyani Buddha)
|first emanates from the Ocean, and this drop disperses into
|smaller drops & so on. Still the essential nature of all the
|drops are the same.>>>
|OK, fair analogy here. I would say that from the very first
|emanation of the drop, the drop itself is maya and the idea
|that such a drop can ever come about is ignorance.
|<<<Perhaps the drop (Atman) can never equal the Ocean
|(Parabrahm) even when it merges once again with its source and
|'knows' it is ONE. But all the time it has always been the
|same nature.>>>
|OK, but why? It has been one and the same nature all the time
|because of our initial assumption of an emanation - that
|something could emanate or express itself in the first place.
|The whole idea/definition of "expression" and of "emanation"
|is all about like producing like, which BTW is a process
|called svabhava.
|<<<I'll let HPB have the last word.
|"I make no difference between my Seventh Principle and the
|Universal Spirit or Parabrahm; nor do I believe in an
|individual, segregated spirit in me, as something apart from
|the whole." (CW V 52) ...Peter
|OK, and I agree - because if there were to be any "difference"
|then liberation/enlightenment would be impossible. I do,
|however, have a problem with Theosophists throwing around
|terms like Higher Self and Individuality, and even Atman, as
|if these were indeed "something apart from the whole."
|Jerry S.
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