Theos-Talk Archives (October 2001 Message tt00435)

Saturday, October 27, 2001


Dear Joe:


May I make some observations below in the body of your letter? I
trust you will not mind too much if I exclaim and explain some
statements made there, as they could be misunderstood, I think.
I apologise in advance if I make something too controversial, but
some of my views may sound like that, when all I wish to do is to
show that there is(possibly) some other reason for "my" views.

What have the BROTHERS said about H P B ? May I quote?


"...imperfect as may be our visible agent...yet, she [HPB] is the
best available at present, and her phenomena have for about half
a century astounded and baffled some of the cleverest minds of
the age."	M L 9-10


"After nearly a century of fruitless search, our chiefs had to
avail themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European
body upon European soil to serve as a connecting link between
that country and our own...my brother M. made to you through her
a certain offer...you had but to accept it, and at any time you
liked, you would have had for an hour or more, the real
baitchooly to converse with, instead of the psychological cripple
you generally have to deal with now."	M L 203-4


"On the 17th of November next [1882] the septenary term of trial
given the Society at its foundation in which to discreetly
"preach us" will expire. One or two of us hoped that the world
had so far advanced intellectually, if not intuitionally, that
the Occult doctrine might gain an intellectual acceptance, and
the impulse given for a new cycle of occult research...consent
was given for the trial. It was stipulated, however, that the
experiment should be made independently of our personal
management; that there should be no abnormal interference by
ourselves. So casting about we found in America the man to stand
as leader--a man of great moral courage, unselfish, and having
other good qualities. He was far from being the best, but...he
was the best available. With him we associated a woman of most
exceptional and wonderful endowments. Combined with them she had
strong personal defects, but just as she was, there was no second
to her living fit for this work. We sent her to America, brought
them together--and the trial began. From the first both he and
she were given to clearly understand that the issue lay entirely
with themselves. And both offered themselves for the trial...For
6 1/2 years they have been struggling against such odds as would
have driven off any one who was not working with the desperation
of one who stakes life and all he prizes on some desperate
supreme effort. Their success has not equaled the hopes of their
original backers, phenomenal as it has been in certain
directions. In a few more months the term of probation will end.
If by that time the status of the Society as regards
ourselves --the question of the "Brothers" be not definitely
settled (either dropped out of the Society's programme or
accepted on our own terms) that will be the last of the
"Brothers" of all shapes and colors, sizes or degrees. We will
subside out of public view like a vapour into the ocean. Only
those who have proved faithful to themselves and to Truth through
everything, will be allowed further intercourse with us..."	M L
263-4



"You can never know her [HPB] as we do, therefore--none of you
will ever be able to judge her impartially or correctly. You see
the surface of things; and what you would term "virtue," holding
but to appearances, we--judge but after having fathomed the
object to its profoundest depth, and generally leave the
appearances to take care of themselves. In your opinion H.P.B.
is...a quaint, strange woman, a psychological riddle...We on the
other hand, under the garb of eccentricity and folly--we find a
profounder wisdom in her inner Self than you will ever find
yourselves able to perceive...we...light daily upon traits of her
inner nature the most delicate and refined, and which would cost
an uninitiated psychologist years of constant and keen
observation, and many an hour of close analysis and efforts to
draw out of the depth of that most subtle of mysteries--human
mind--and one of the most complicated machines,---H.P.B.'s
mind--and thus learn to know her true inner Self."	M L 314


"The Lhas or adept alone possesses the real, his mind being en
rapport with the Universal Mind. The Lhas has made a perfect
junction of his soul with the Universal Mind in its fullness,
which makes him for the time a divine being existing in the
region of absolute intelligence, knowledge of natural laws or
Dgyu..."	HPB to APS 376


"I never gave myself out for a full-blown occultist, but only
for a student of Occultism for the last thirty or forty years.
Yet I am enough of an occultist to know that before we find the
Master within our own hearts and seventh principle--we need an
outside Master...I got my drop from my Master (the living
one)...He is a Saviour, he who leads you to finding the Master
within yourself. It is ten years already that I preach the inner
Master and God and never represented our Masters as Saviours in
the Christian sense."	[ HPB to Dr. Hartmann ]	PATH X p. 367


"...as I venerate the Master, and worship MY MASTER--the sole
creator of my inner Self which but for His calling it out,
awakening it from its slumber, would never have come to conscious
being--not in this life, at all events..."	HPB to APS p. 104


"We have offered to exhume the primeval strata of man's being,
his basic nature, and lay bare the wonderful complications of his
inner Self...and demonstrate it scientifically...It is our
mission to plunge and bring the pearls of Truth to the
surface...For countless generations hath the adept builded a fane
of imperishable rocks, a giant's Tower of INFINITE THOUGHT,
wherein the Titan dwelt...emerging from it but at the end of
every cycle, to invite the elect of mankind to cooperate with him
and help in his turn enlighten superstitious man...until that day
when the foundations of a new continent of thought are so firmly
built that no amount of opposition and ignorant malice guided by
the Brethren of the Shadow will be found to prevail. But until
that day of final triumph, someone has to be sacrificed--though
we accept but voluntary victims. The ungrateful task did lay her
[HPB] low and desolate in the ruins of misery, misapprehension,
and isolation: but she will have her reward in the hereafter for
we never were ungrateful..." M L 51


"The Occult Science is not one in which secrets can be
communicated of a sudden...till the neophyte attains to the
condition necessary for that degree of illumination to which, and
for which, he is entitled and fitted, most if not all of the
Secrets are incommunicable. The receptivity must be equal to the
desire to instruct. The illumination must come from
within...Fasting, meditation, chastity of thought word and deed;
silence for certain periods to enable nature herself to speak to
him who comes to her for information; government of the animal
passions and impulses; utter unselfishness of intention, the use
of certain incense and fumigations for physiological purposes,
have been published as the means since the days of Plato and
Iamblichus in the West..."	M L 282-3


"...between adept and chela--Master and Pupil--there gradually
forms a closer tie; for the psychic interchange is regulated
scientifically...as the water in a full tank runs into an empty
one which it is connected with; and as the common level will be
sooner or later reached according to the capacity of the
feed-pipe, so does the knowledge of the adept flow to the chela;
and the chela attains the adept-level according to his receptive
capacities. At the same time the chela, being an individual, a
separate evolution, unconsciously imparts to the Master the
quality of his accumulated mentality. [ we ] always ascertain
independently and for ourselves whether the ideas so reflected in
us are right or wrong."	LETTERS FROM THE MASTERS OF WISDOM
series I), p. 82-3


"...the door is always opened to the right man who knocks. And
we invariably welcome the newcomer;--only instead of going over
to him he has to come to us. More than that: unless he has
reached that point in the path of occultism from which return is
impossible, by his having irrevocably pledged himself to our
association, we never--except in cases of utmost moment--visit
him or even cross the threshold of his door in visible
appearance."	M L 8-9


"...whenever and whatever is possible will always be done for
you unurged; hence never to either ask for, or suggest it,
yourself-- (avoid my having to refuse a friend) ...to teach
(others in Britain)...through your kind agency...I have never
undertaken to convince them of the extent of our powers or even
of our personal existence."	M L 337


----------------------------

[At the end of this memo I offer an APPENDIX of statements ] DTB
Let me say, first, that I think it is quite unfair to lump a
group of contributors or students into a "crowd" of anything. We
all enjoy putting labels on groups (and other things), and when
others encounter the labels, they are apt to apply them uniformly
to all so named, although individual differences are usually so
outstanding that they do not fit the group designation at all.


H P B's WRITINGS -- A chronology -- [we could use this for
ourselves in study]

If I have understood Theosophy correctly, it provides (in general
terms) a series of study texts, a kind of manual based on the
experience of thousands of students who have been researching the
secret and occult ways of Nature, and of THEMSELVES.

One might consider that ISIS UNVEILED (1877) opened the door and
served to draw all the unusual records of events surrounding the
"Invisible aspect of Nature" into a single compass.

The was followed by H P B articles in THEOSOPHIST, PATH and
LUCIFER (1879-1891) -- responding to "errors" in ISIS UNVEILED
and to other inquiries made by students. Of importance during
this time is the exchange of letters between Sinnett and the
"BROTHERS." [ MAHATMA LETTERS ] (1880...)

1888 marked the publishing of The SECRET DOCTRINE . Therein the
student finds the doctrines of COSMOGONY (Universal Re-creation)
and HUMAN EVOLUTION (spiritual, psycho-mental and physical)
detailed, both as history, and as an account of interacting
factors. An explanation of the program for the Perfection of
Humanity is given as history, currency and future potentials that
are realizable.

1889 saw the publishing of the KEY TO THEOSOPHY, (designed to
answer basic questions from enquirers concerning the doctrines
and objectives of Theosophy), and, the VOICE OF THE SILENCE
(designed to answer deeper questions concerning the process of
individual perfection along the paths of the HEART DOCTRINE.

The THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY was under editing in May 1891 when
H.P.Blavatsky died, and the task was finished by her secretary
and friend, Mr. G. R. S. Mead. Students have traced most of the
entries there to statements made by H.P.Blavatsky in her books
and articles. Some definitions made there by H.P.Blavatsky are
not to be found in other places.

Historically, most of these had gone out-of-print by around
1910-20. The SECRET DOCTRINE had been rewritten and a 3rd
Volume, not edited by H P B, had been made of some of her
articles and issued in 1897 (6 years after her death).

--------------------------------


INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY

I believe each of us is individually responsible for what one
does, thinks and says. None of us can be entirely classified
with any one else. Each as an INDIVIDUAL (Atma-Buddhi-Manas)
chooses and pursues his own course, or modifies his approach to
suit himself. The results of such choices are then considered to
be in the domain of his personal Karma.

We may have adopted one or another aspect of exoteric assistance
(as provided by the groups, societies, associations) which use
the word Theosophy, or none.

The main thing is to accept full responsibility for whatever one
uses as a basis for their position. It can never be entirely
shared. It can never be a basis on which to blame others. Karma
is always individual, though in some cases it i shared with
others, this voluntary and independent aspect of responsibility
and of discrimination is always singular.

If it is at all important one can decide which of these groups is
better able to leave us free to our own approach to the basic
principles of THEOSOPHY.

If any one communicates with another or others it usually for the
benefit of possible answers that will return and give assistance
to the seeker. Also if something g seems unclear, the subject
can be developed by further questions or suggestions.

I believe we are all agreed that the teachings we received
through H P B and the "Brothers" forms the starting base for our
interest.

If we choose to use the ideas or the writings of some others, we
do so realizing that it is their opinions which might shade or
color our views of the ORIGINALS. If we desire to defend our
choice, that is really of interest only to ones' self.

See below, my notes, please.

Best wishes,

Dallas

-----------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Fulton
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:17 PM
To:
Subject: Re: TS, ULT, Krishnamurti & Besant

--------------------------------

JF
Although I admire the dedication of the ULT crowd, it has always
been
amazing how doctrinaire things seem to get around here. Even the
Mahatma's
make the comment (See ML#9) about how in writing Isis Unveiled,
Blavatsky
made "real mistakes".

-------------------------------------------------

DTB	Have you verified these?

Have you also read H P B's article: MY BOOKS [BLAVATSKY:
Collected Works (TPH), Vol. 13, p. 191; LUCIFER, May 1891;
UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS, H P B Articles I p. 475]


She also wrote: "ISIS UNVEILED" and the "THEOSOPHIST" on
REINCARNATION" [THEOSOPHIST, August 1882; U L T H P B Articles
Vol. I. p. 491]


And another: MISTAKEN NOTIONS ON The "SECRET DOCTRINE "
[LUCIFER, June 1890; U L T H P B Articles Vol. I p. 485]]


Also: SEEMING DISCREPANCIES [ THEOSOPHIST, JUNE 1882; U L T H
P B Articles, Vol. I p. 488]

Have you identified other "mistakes" that H P B made? And which
she and the Brothers described and corrected ?

If you have such a list, could you share it with us ? I for one
would be grateful to have "chapter and verse," instead of some
broad and rather indefinite statement -- which to some may say:

"Really -- H P B did not write accurately == the Mahatmas have
said so == hence all her writings are uncertain as to base and
accuracy." [ And, for accuracy's sake, append here a list of
errors, and their corrections, if available. ]

To maintain this view that you advance (it is not new), but has
been put forward by older students who FOLLOWED H P B in order to
bolster and support their own opinions before a crowd of readers
too lazy to dig for the actual statements and do the kind of
research that H P B expected them to do.

If we are to adopt someone else's views (mine, yours any one's,
past or present -- why should any one believe me?) then, one
must disregard all the laudatory statements the Mahatmas have
made concerning H P B's work (as in MAHATMA LETTERS pp. [and,
this includes the Masters' own certificates, given to Dr. Hubbe
Schleiden -- reprinted in PATH, Vol. 8, p. 1-2, April 1883] ,
or, to balance things out, give them "equal time."

Boris de Zircov in BLAVATSKY: Collected Works (TPH) has placed
on record these facts so readers can verify them with the
"ORIGINALS." The ORIGINAL articles in THEOSOPHIST, LUCIFER,
PATH, etc... are still to be found in libraries for reference,
and have been reprinted elsewhere in THEOSOPHY Magazine ( Los
Angeles ) and THE THEOSPHICAL MOVEMENT (Bombay, India).

When this is done, the reader will have a better position to
accept or reject your opinions.

This ability is always the prerogative of the reader and student,
depending on the depth of his own efforts to KNOW WHAT THEOSOPHY
ACTUALLY TEACHES.

If anything the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS are important and not
DOCTRINAIRE. They are FUNDAMENTAL.

But they may be "anathema" for those who have adopted some views
derived from other students WHO FOLLOWED H P B and presumed to
choose to make those the only version by which the ORIGINALS
should be considered.

The Writing of Mr. W. Q. Judge are a different matter. Most of
them were published while H P B was alive and there are in
existence her own evaluation of their worth. In addition they
can be cross checked with those originals for philosophical
coincidence, or the reverse.

They appeal to reason and to common sense when put together --
which it the task of each individual, and, which none can define
for another.

========================================


JF
It is quite unsettling to think that a group of
brilliant people (among the best minds in the entire Theosophical
movement!!!) appear to drift towards comprimising the faculty of
discrimination over the following of a personality. Blavatsky's
writings
were meant to challenge the intellectual and spiritual world of
her day.
They were never meant as the last word in spiritual knowledge.

----------------------------------------------


DTB	H P B said virtually the same thing, and she had the humility
to do this before all her readers so that they would be forced to
independently study and evaluate those teachings from the
MAHATMAS

If anything, H.P.Blavatsky did not encourage any "follow the
leader-ism" and desired her students and those who relied on her
writings for their view of THEOSOPHY to do so on an entirely free
and independent basis. This view is maintained and sustained in
practice for the past 92 years by the UNITED LODGE OF
THEOSOPHISTS.

As to being the "last word in spiritual knowledge" --
H.P.Blavatsky made no such claim.

However students would be well advised to familiarize themselves
through those ORIGINAL WRITINGS with the propositions and
doctrines said to be THEOSOPHICAL and use their common sense to
make final decisions.

------------------------------------------------------

JF
One would be well advised to consider the advice given to Sinnett
in ML#49 (see Par. 5).
These discussions are not truth, the SD itself was not THE truth,
but merely the lifting of a corner of the veil.

-------------------------------------------------

DTB	Exactly so. Mr. Sinnett was echoing that which H.P.Blavatsky
had always said. Do not go into anything with your eyes shut.
Be attentive. Pay close attention to the coherency of all
presentations about the occult. Use your perceptions on what
H.P.Blavatsky said and which one finds is echoed throughout the
MAHATMA LETTERS .

------------------------------------------------

JF
If you want "final" you may want to go to the Yoga Sutra's of
Patanjali.
W.Q. Judge had a good (Westernized) version. Otherwise, the
version titled
"The Science of Yoga" by I.K. Taimni is probably better, if one
wants to get
the actual Sanskrit script, along with transliteration and
translations,
direct and "interpreted".

--------------------------------------------------

DTB	Joe's advice here is good. But before going to PATANJALI and
trying to make sense of it, I would recommend a careful study of
H P B's KEY TO THEOSOPHY .

There she places much emphasis on discriminating the 3 divisions
of MANAS (Mind). [Key, pp. 175-6] In PATANJALI the words
"soul" and "mind" are used interchangeably, and the student is
expected to know, as a preliminary, the difference between HIGHER
MANAS (Buddhi-Manasic--wisdom) and LOWER MANAS
(Kama-Manasic--folly, selfish desire and ignorance). And both of
these, with pure unadulterated and free MANAS. There is where
the PERCEIVER and the WITNESS reside in us.

------------------------------------

Joe

------------------------------------------

Appendix -- DTB offers


WHO USED THE BODY WE ALL KNOW WAS NAMED AND
CALLED H P. BLAVATSKY ?



H.P.B. wrote to Mr Sinnett (ML pp. 465-6)

"Do you believe that, because you have fathomed---as you
think---my physical crust and brain; that shrewd analyst of
*human* nature though you be---you have ever penetrated even
beneath the first cuticles of my REAL SELF ? You would gravely
err, if you did...You DO NOT KNOW me; for whatever there is
INSIDE it, is NOT WHAT YOU THINK it is; and---to judge of me
therefore, as of one UNTRUTHFUL is the greatest mistake in the
world besides being a flagrant injustice. I (the inner real
"I") am in prison and cannot show myself as I am with all the
desire I may have to. Why, then, should I, because speaking for
myself AS I AM and feel myself to be, why should I be held
responsible for the OUTWARD jail-door and ITS appearance, when I
have neither built nor yet decorated it ?"


Julia Keightley, better known as "Jasper Niemand" who edited Mr.
Judge's LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME, narrated an experience she
had after the death of Mme. Blavatsky over 110 years ago:


"A few days after Madame Blavatsky died, H.P.B. awoke me at
night. I raised myself, feeling no surprise, but only the sweet
accustomed pleasure. She held my eyes with her leonine gaze.
Then she grew thinner, taller, her shape became masculine; slowly
then her features changed, until a man of height and rugged
powers, stood before me, the last vestige of her features melting
into his, until the leonine gaze, the progressed radiance of her
glance alone remained. The man lifted his head and said: 'Bear
witness!' He then walked from the room, laying his hand on the
portrait of H.P.B. as he passed."
-- From REMINISCENCES OF H.P. BLAVATSKY AND THE SECRET DOCTRINE,
1893, p. 127.


TWO PERSONS IN MADAME BLAVATSKY

In a letter dated Feb. 23, 1887, HPB wrote to William Q. Judge:

"Yes there are 'two persons' in me. But what of that? So are
there two in you; only mine is conscious & responsible & yours is
not." [Reprinted from an entry in THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM, July
1932, p. 226 -- from the original.]


In the Secret Doctrine, Vol. II, p. 167 and also in the 2nd
printing of THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, (2nd Edition) HPB added a
GLOSSARY. There (under EGO) she writes about the TWO EGOS IN
MAN:

"Esoteric philosophy teaches the existence of two Egos in man,
the mortal or personal, and the higher, the divine or impersonal,
calling the former 'personality,' and the latter 'individuality.'
"

In another definition (INDIVIDUALITY), HPB writes that It is "one
of the names given in Theosophy and Occultism to the human Higher
Ego. We make a distinction between the immortal and divine and
the mortal human Ego. . . ."

And in another place: "The Individuality is the Higher Ego
(Manas) of the Triad considered as a Unity...the Individuality is
our imperishable Ego which reincarnates and clothes itself in a
new Personality at every new birth."


A few more statements from original Theosophical literature may
help round out some idea of the inner nature of H.P.B.


"...I am enough of an occultist to know that before we find the
Master within our own hearts and
seventh principle---we need an outside Master...I got my drop
from my Master (the living one)...He is a Saviour, he who leads
you to finding the Master within yourself..." Letter of H.P.B.
to Franz Hartmann, THE PATH, Volume X, p. 367.


". . . I venerate the Masters, and worship MY MASTER--the sole
creator of my inner Self which but
for His calling it out, awakening it from its slumber, would
never have come to conscious being--not in this life, at all
events..." [Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to A. P. Sinnett, p.
104]


"Several times a day I feel that besides me there is someone
else, quite separable from me, present in my body. I never lose
the consciousness of my own personality; what I feel is as if I
were keeping
silent and the other one -- the lodger who is in me -- were
speaking with my tongue.

For instance, I know that I have never been in the places which
are described by my 'other me', but this other one -- the second
me -- does not lie when he tells about places and things unknown
to me, because he has actually seen them and knows them well. I
have given it up: let my fate conduct me at its own sweet will;
and besides, what am I to do?

It would be perfectly ridiculous if I were to deny the possession
of knowledge avowed by my No. 2, giving occasion to the people
around me to imagine that I keep them in the dark for modesty's
sake. In the night, when I am alone in my bed, the whole life of
my No. 2 passes before my eyes, and I do not see myself at all,
but quite a different person -- different in race and different
in feelings." -- H.P.B. THE PATH, December 1894,


>From another of her letters (Sept 1887) to Mr. Judge we read:


"Begin by being elected both of you ... It means that unless you
consent, you force me to a miserable life & a miserable death
with the idea preying on my mind that there is an end of
theosophy.
That for several years I will not be able to help it on & [steer]
its course, because I will have to act in a
body which will have to be assimilated to the Nirmanakaya,
because even in Occultism there are such
things as a failure, & a retardment, and a misfit. But you don't
understand me, I see."

Concerning Nirmanakayas, H.P.B. writes in the Glossary in the
KEY:

"NIRMANAKAYA ...Occultism...says...that Nirmanakaya, although
meaning literally a transformed "body," is a state.

The form is that of the Adept or Yogi who enters, or chooses,
that post-mortem condition in preference to the Dharmakaya or
absolute Nirvanic state.

He does this because the latter [form gives] him a state of
selfish bliss, in which no other living being can participate,
the Adept being thus precluded from the possibility of helping
humanity, or even devas.

As a Nirmanakaya, however, the adept leaves behind him only his
physical body, and retains every other "principle" save the
Kamic, for he has crushed this out for ever from his nature
during life, and it can never resurrect in his post-mortem state.
Thus, instead of going into selfish bliss, he chooses a life of
self-sacrifice, an existence which ends only with the life-cycle,
in order to be enabled to help mankind in an invisible, yet most
effective, manner... Thus a Nirmanakaya is...verily one who,
whether a Chutuktu or a Khubilkhan, an adept or a Yogi during
life, has since become a member of that invisible Host which ever
protects and watches over humanity within Karmic limits. Mistaken
often for a "Spirit," a Deva, God himself, &c., a Nirmanakaya is
ever a protecting, compassionate, verily a guardian, angel to him
who is worthy of his help...."


The Masters writing to Mr. Sinnett and referring to H.P.B.
wrote:

"After nearly a century of fruitless search, our CHIEFS had to
avail themselves of the only opportunity
to send out a European BODY upon European soil to serve as a
connecting link between that country and our own." The Mahatma
Letters, No. 26, Autumn, 1881.

In another:

"The TCHANG-CHUB (an adept who has, by the power of his knowledge
and soul enlightenment, become exempt from the curse of
UNCONSCIOUS transmigration) --- may, at his will and desire, and
instead of reincarnating himself only after bodily death, do so,
and repeatedly --during his life if he chooses. He holds the
power of choosing for himself NEW BODIES--whether on this or any
other planet--while in possession of his old form, that he
generally preserves for purposes of his
own." The Mahatma Letters, Letter No. 49.

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