[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next]

Final Statement on Atman

Oct 22, 2001 08:18 AM
by Jerry S

<<<<Dallas gave an answer in another post (see below)[actually H.P.B. gives
it and Dallas is passing it on] It seems to me to clear up the question.>>>

Well, I am glad to hear your quotes from the "core teachings" that you gave
out somehow "clears up the question" for you. It certainly clears up nothing
at all for me.

According to Frank, and Dallas, and apparently many others, Theosophy and
Buddhism are agreed on the subject of anatma - that the atma has no inherent
existence (ie no svabhava). I presented a list of quotes from Tibetan
Buddhist Leaders all saying that atman has no svabhava and in fact is the
chief root cause of karma and reincarnation. Yet, in spite of saying this,
everyone goes right on merrily proclaiming that atma is permanent and
eternal and etc etc. (Everyone still in denial, perhaps?). Now look guys,
you can't have it both ways - either the atman is impermanent or it is
permanent, it can't be both. (Well actually, it can and it is, but thats
another story!)

Bottom line (maybe): The atman is just as real and just as permanent as the
other "principles" are. The 7 principles stand or fall together.

I gave a quote from Blavatsky to the effect that matter and spirit are BOTH
maya. This statement IS in accord with Buddhism. (Does anyone know what
"maya" is?) When you guys quote Blavatsky to the effect that atman is
spiritual, you are ignoring that it is still maya.

And it doesn't help any to try to ignore the reality of the planes -
<<<<<To my understanding the planes are all mental constructs in an
absract sense - ratiocination if you will - ideas are the child of
thought - thought is a vibration - vibration is motion - trith lies in the
STOPPED moment - ie no vibration - no thought.....>>>

The planes are indeed "mental constructs" inasmuchas they are the
manifestations of our collective mind, but they still have reality. The
planes can be visited and experienced, and so have conditional reality.
They are the "invisible worlds" that surround our physical universe.

The idea that "Truth lies in the STOPPED moment" is true in the sense that
there is no thought and no conceptualization, but there is certainly a
vibration. Otherwise anyone could become enlightened by simply being beaten
into unconsciousness. Spirituality has no thoughts because it is above the
mental plane, but it does have clarity and acute awareness (as well as
bliss/ecstasy in the lower levels).

Hope this helps. Both matter and spirit, two aspects of the same thing, have
conditional reality (they are dependent arisings) but no inherent reality
(they have no svabhava) - the svabhava mentioned in the Stanzas are a
seeming or an experiential reality only (ie an illusive svabhava as part of

Jerry S.

[Back to Top]

Theosophy World: Dedicated to the Theosophical Philosophy and its Practical Application