Theos-Talk Archives (October 2001 Message tt00241)

A small snipper -

'It is only one pole of the equation. To obtain perspective or use of
the concept one needs the other 2 participating Qualities. In the B Gita
Krishna, speaking as the MAHA-VISHNU, the PRESERVER of the UNIVERSES,
says: "O Arjuna I created this whole Universe out of a single portion
of myself and remain separate." '

My thoughts :

1 - By saying there is more than one pole to an equation is of course
continuing non-unity divide along the lines of subject/object etc - a
diferentiation hence mayavic

2 - As much as I hold the Gita as my prime spiritual source one would
have to say that as a theosophist you can't just accept something like 
"O Arjuna I created this whole Universe out of a single portion of
myself and remain separate." - if evidence goes against it. So Heisnberg
says that there can be no seperation of event and viewer how could one
remain separate from ones creation - unless of course it is a
theoretical or mental seperation - which would still seem mayavic to me.


I really don't think you can explain this topic with words. One must
become nothing to experience it - hence gNOSis...

Anyway

Nos



|-----Original Message-----
|From: dalval14@earthlink.net [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net] 
|Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2001 9:23 AM
|To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
|Subject: Theos-World RE: Re to Brigitte - to Dallas NO-THING 
|-- ANATTA -- ABSOLUTE ?
|
|
|Wednesday, October 17, 2001
|
|
|Dear Peter, Jerry, et all
|
|
|Most interesting response and view point Peter. Enjoyed reading it.
|
|I think you are right and if Jerry could advance his sources 
|for us as a sharing, we might be able to see how his view 
|point develops.
|
|I think all students of Theosophy welcome joint investigation, 
|as there is a certain increment in safety (as regards accuracy and
|discernment) when several work on the same subject.
|
|I really would like to understand his point of view.
|
|
|	ANATTA -- NOTHINGNESS
|
|
|Take ANATTA (Nothingness) It might just as well be a plenum 
|(Everything).
|
|It is only one pole of the equation. To obtain perspective or 
|use of the concept one needs the other 2 participating 
|Qualities. In the B Gita Krishna, speaking as the 
|MAHA-VISHNU, the PRESERVER of the UNIVERSES, says: "O Arjuna 
|I created this whole Universe out of a single portion of 
|myself and remain separate."
|
|He then outlines the three Gunas (qualities or limitations in 
|matter and evolution, which represent the totality of 
|existence and the CAUSE for progress inherent in all beings.
|
|He states these three Gunas (qualities) equilibrizes one 
|another: SATTVA (Truth, Wisdom, Purity) -- RAJAS (Activity, 
|Thought, desire, reasoned or chaotic actions) -- TAMAS 
|(Inertia, matter, form, immobility, selfishness and the 
|isolation of ignorance).
|
|NOTHINGNESS : To me it simply means NOT MATTER OF THIS PLANE. 
|But then could it be "matter" of another plane, in which case 
|the parameters of that level of substance or matter would be 
|interesting to look into. We speak of ANATTA because of our
|(matter-limited) unfamiliarity with states of matter other 
|than those we encounter here in this 3-dimensional space {SECRET
|DOCTRINE I 142, 201fn, 673, II 700fn ]
|
|The interesting thing is that we as THINKERS are willing to 
|consider this paradoxical antithesis to our own existence and 
|ascribe to it since ancient times, names and qualities. This 
|indicates to me that it is known and its existence is surmised if
|not defined. I give a list below.
|
|In search of "No-Thing" or nothing I found references in The 
|SECRET DOCTRINE such as
|
|A-RUPA (No form) S D I 571; 214, 350, II 126;
|
|Ain-Soph or the ENDLESS ABSOLUTE , S D I 214, 340 353-4; II
|111, [above MAYA I 54fn]
|
|BEGINNINGLESS and SEXLESS S D I 351;
|
|CHAOS, VOID, SPACE: S D I 109, 214, 343, II 126
|
|DABAR S D I 350;
|
|"GOD" is Nothing S D I 352; and, the
|
|PARABRAHM: S D I 391, 571; S D II 128, 553;
|
|Symbol used to signify NOTHING is a CIRCLE II 553.
|
|sometimes a PYRAMID was used as a symbol: S D I 617;
|
|UNKNOWABLE and UNNAMABLE: S D II 41, 128, 472,
|
|ZEROANA AKERNE: S D I 113;
|
|
|On SECRET DOCTRINE I 59 FN I read: "Parabrahmam is the 
|SUBSTANCE--changeless, eternal, and incognizable--and Chit 
|(Atma), and Achit (Anatma) are its qualities, as form and color
|are the qualities of any object. The two are the garments, or
|body, or rather attribute (Sarira) of Parabrahmam. But an 
|Occultist would find much to say against this claim, and so 
|would the Adwaitee Vedantin."
|
|On page ( S D, Vol I, 288fn) we read: "...Chiti...that by 
|which the effects and consequences of actions and kinds of 
|knowledge are selected for the use of the soul." or 
|conscience the INNER Voice in man. With the Yogis, the Chiti 
|is a synonym of Mahat, the first and divine intellect; but in 
|Esoteric philosophy, Mahat is the root of Chiti, its germ; 
|and Chiti is a quality of Manas in conjunction with Buddhi, a 
|quality that to itself by spiritual affinity a Chitkala when 
|it develops sufficiently in man. This is why it is said that 
|Chiti is a voice acquiring mystic life and becoming "KWAN 
|YIN." [S D I 288 fn ]
|
|A little above the nature of the Chitkala is said to be the 
|Devas (MAHATMA LETTERS 107), Dhyan Chohans, ...some of which 
|are those who have furnished man with his 4th and 5th 
|Principles (Kama and
|Manas) from their own essences; and others the Pitris so-called...."]
|
|In regard to KWAN-YIN we find in S D I 471-2 some interesting
|statements: "Kwan-shi-Yin is Avalokiteshwara [ THE
|THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY , p. 44: "...in esoteric philosophy 
|Avaloki, the "on-looker" is the HIGHER SELF,... the Logos, 
|both celestial and human...] ... while Padmapani is the 
|HIGHER EGO or MANAS...the spiritual reflex of Avalokiteshwara 
|in the world of forms --of Padmapani ... see MAHATMA LETTERS, 
|pp. 343-346] ...the 7th Universal Principle,. .the synthetic 
|aggregation of all the planetary Spirits, Dhyan Chohans. 
|...the universal Saviour of all living beings. ...KWAN-YIN is 
|a perfect equivalent......[these] are the gods of chastity 
|among the Yogis of Tibet ...the divine SELF perceived by 
|Self....the Atman or 7th principle merged in the Universal, 
|perceived by, or the object of perception to, Buddhi, the 6th 
|principle or divine Soul in man. ...Kwan-shi-Yin ...the 7th 
|Universal principle, is the Logos perceived by the Universal 
|Buddhi--or Soul, as the synthetic aggregate of the 
|Dhyani-Buddhas ... the omnipresent universal Spirit manifested 
|in the temple of Kosmos or Nature. ...Kwan-shi-Yin and 
|Kwan-Yin are the 2 aspects (male and female) of the same 
|principle in Kosmos, Nature and Man, of divine wisdom and 
|intelligence. They are the "Christos-Sophia" of the mystic
|Gnostics--the Logos and its Sakti. -- and there is more --
|all to be carefully assimilated. This can also be said to be 
|referenced to S D I 570-575.
|
|Apparently, and strictly in metaphysics, once that one passes 
|through the Laya center between the ABSOLUTE and the 
|manifested, and regardless of the level of Wisdom that any 
|entity may have achieved (the highest Dhyani Buddhas), all 
|becomes SUBSTANCE of some kind and is thereafter limited in 
|Time -- even if extremely great --, Space and in Intelligence. 
| However the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS resides at all time within the 
|ABSOLUTE. It manifestation is through the divine Mind or 
|Mahat. The struggle of Manas to become one with the ABSOLUTE 
|is continuous and provides the concept of ever-living-ness or 
|immortality, as this STRUGGLE IS NEVER FULLY RESOLVED.
|
|One might further surmise: The difference between emanation 
|and radiation needs to be studied [see TRANSACTIONS OF THE 
|BLAVATSKY LODGE, pp 94-5] "Radiation is...the unconscious 
|and spontaneous shooting forth, the action of a something from 
|which this act takes place; but emanation is something from 
|which another thing issues in a constant efflux, and emanates 
|consciously ....Radiation can come from the Absolute: 
|Emanation cannot. ... One difference exists in the idea that 
|Radiation is sure, sooner or later, to be withdrawn again ... 
|while Emanation runs into other emanations and is thoroughly 
|separated and differentiated. Of course at the end of the 
|cycle of time emanation will also be withdrawn into the One 
|Absolute, but meanwhile, during the entire cycle of changes 
|... emanation will persist. ... emanation is equivalent to 
|Evolution, while Radiation represents ... in the PRE-COSMIC 
|period of course--an instantaneous action like that of a piece 
|of paper set on fire under a burning glass, of which the Sun 
|knows nothing..." [Trans. 94-5; BLAVATSKY: Collected Works 
|(TPH) Vol 10 ]
|
|More is then said about this in terms of Consciousness as it 
|passes through the 7 planes. But that is the on-going study, 
|life after life that we are all going through. "Veil after 
|veil will lift, but there must be veil upon veil behind." The 
|pupil must hold tenaciously to the mental vision of his own 
|IMMORTALITY. and that he is ONE WITH ALL. This is summarized 
|in the phrase UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD.
|
|
|Best wishes,
|
|Dallas
|
|================================
|
|
|-----Original Message-----
|From: Peter Merriott [mailto:nous@btinternet.com]
|Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 3:58 AM
|To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
|Subject: RE: Theos-World Re to Brigitte - to Dallas
|
|
|> DALLAS: But the real effort was to redirect everyone's
|attention to such
|> concepts as:
|
|> 1. the immortality of the Human EGO, the SPIRITUAL IMMORTAL
|SELF,>>>>
|>
|>
|
|> JERRY: I do not subscribe to any such "immortality." I believe
|that you
|got this idea (and many others) by taking Blavatsky's words 
|out of context. I do not
|> think that your continual promotion of this immortality
|business is doing
|> anyone any good.
|===============================
|
|Peter:
|
|	Jerry,
|
|I don't believe Dallas has taken this idea "out of context". 
|I think it may well be you who does not seem to understand the 
|context in which Dallas and HPB (and indeed the Mahatmas) 
|write on this subject.
|
|I don't have any doubt that HPB and the Mahatmas were 
|thoroughly acquainted with the doctrine of anatta as taught in 
|Buddhism. We find them applying this same doctrine to the 
|personal self (rather the non-self of the
|skandhas) over and over again. Yet being aware of this they 
|still emphasized the nature of the Individuality and 
|'immortality' of the Spiritual Ego (as distinct from the 
|personal ego) - even an 'Individuality' of the Monad which 
|lasts through the great Paranirvana
|(Maha-Pralaya) and
|emerges again at the next Maha-Manvantara.
|
|For as long as you/we project the qualities of the personality 
|onto the Individuality these more complex and deeper doctrines 
|of Theosophy will always remain obscure. I think we need to 
|get beyond dictionary and exoteric definitions which is all 
|'lower manas' mentality and try to understand the deeper 
|meaning in these teachings.
|
|If you really believe Dallas has taken these ideas out of 
|context then please bring forward what HPB and the Mahatmas 
|"actually" say on this subject and offer your own explanation 
|of what it is they really mean. There are a number of very 
|knowledgeable students of Theosophy on this list, I am sure 
|they would welcome a genuine discussion on this important 
|topic. We need more than just disparaging statements about 
|fellow students and their views.
|
|...Peter
|
|
|
|
|
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| 
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