Theos-Talk Archives (July 2001 Message tt00243)

Monday, July 23, 2001



Thank you Jerry:

Discovery is always welcome.

However I would place emphasis on the study of THEOSOPHY -- to
find out if it is valid or not.

The various organizations serve as "facilitators." They enable,
each with their own degree of ease, students who approach and
enter them or make use of their facilities , to contact
THEOSOPHY.

The only value I see in the LT is that it does not use up a lot
of time in administrative affairs. It tries to pur THEOSOPHY
first as an item to be seriously studied.

The paraphernalia of office and keeping the facilities going is a
matter of voluntary contribution of time by associates.

Those who have convinced themselves that THEOSOPHY is valuable
then have used U.L.T. (and the other Theosophic bodies, to
spread a knowledge of it, and looking to the future have tried to
make it available for others.

As time passes, the various interpretations have left a mark. It
is to be decided by those who want to spend the time, which of
these gives a student greater facility.

How does one know what THEOSOPHY is, unless one is able to go to
the purest form of the original recording -- the work that
H.P.Blavatsky published and edited?

I will interject some comments below in the body of Yours
sincerely,


Dal

=================================================


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry S
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 5:24 PM
To:
Subject: Questions to Dallas and other ULT-ers


Dallas
<<<<<<<<Dear Jerry:
I have looked over several E-mail postings in the last couple of
days. I see that in some cases my meanings have not been
grasped. I tried to be clear and give information about the
procedures the U.L.T. used, which to my mind, are very much the
same as any "organization" might use. The only difference is that
in U.L.T.
much of the work is done by volunteers who confer on the best way
to handle
things. No one is an "authority" or an "expert" but when
several person
confer seeking for the best way to do things, it is more likely
that good
results flow from that effort.>>>


Jerry
Dallas, I was just curious, because I don't know much about the
ULT. I am
not trying to put it down - I don't really know enough to like it
or not
like it yet.



Dallas
<<<No one in U.L.T. is anxious to maintain a rigid "by-the-book"
process. The fact that we have no politics, by-laws, officers,
etc, implies that for 90 years or so, the U.L.T. has performed
its work on the basis it has set for itself (of course with ups
and downs), and continues to do so:>>>


Jerry
My remarks to your description of ULT having an attitude of
non-tolerance of
disruption was aimed at all the TSs, Dallas, not just ULT. I do
think its
pretty applicable to all of them. I am not trying to single any
one TS out,
merely to discover what is going on with each of them. The
questions arose
when I was looking over the online history according to ULT,
thats all.


DTB	OK understood


Jerry
>>>>>>>>1. Provide copies of the "Original writings
(teachings) of
Theosophy" as done by H.P.Blavatsky W. Q. Judge , and others.
OK, but I think all the TSs are doing this.


DTB	find out. Check and compare their editions with
H.P.Blavatsky's originals


Dallas
<<<<<<<<2. Provide a free forum at which the original
teachings could be
discussed in a regular, harmonious and expectant mode.


Jerry
This is one that still puzzles me, Dallas, because it seems to
imply that
other TSs can't do this. Isn't this being done by all of the TS
"Lodges" (I
am at large, have never participated at any Lodge meeting, and so
have no
direct experience here)? Maybe you could explain this one more,
because I
don't see it as being particular to one specific TS. Perhaps my
question
should be re-phrased as: Why can't other TSs do this, if they
want to?


DTB	They can if they want to. However much depends on whether
they are using H.P.Blavatsky's writings as a basis, or some
interpretive material generated by students who wrote AFTER
H.P.Blavatsky's DEATH. I have checked and found the variations.
No one believes in them until they are discovered.


Dallas
<<<<This activity was then maintained, and continues today, to be
sustained by some who understand the prime fact that
1. THEOSOPHY is not "owned" by any organization.

OK


<<<<<<<2 THEOSOPHY is a statement made by the members of
the Great Lodge of
Adepts concerning the History of our Universe, our world, and
Humanity.

Theosophy is primarily history, then?


DTB	CERTAINLY -- But then every Text-Book you use in school is
also HISTORY in the sense that it REPORTS on the DISCOVERIES and
findings of investigators into Nature and events that have
occurred. If the reports are accurate you have a true and fair
HISTORY. But I have found a lot of fiction is deliberately
introduced into history to make it suit the prejudices and
designs of those who introduce those variants.


Dallas
<<<<<<3. Organizations of Theosophists try to present
these items of
information as best they can.

OK

<<<<<<4. The U.L.T. exists because, as time passed,
either the original
teachings went out of print or were distorted by unmarked
"editing."


Jerry
I already knew this one, and I was really wondering if ULT
members feel the
situation is still true today? If so, fine. If not, what is the
ULT's reason
for continuing as a separate TS? Just curious - I have a masters
in
administration and a Ph.D. in human services, and find TS
organizational
psychology fascinating.


DTB	U.L.T. and the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETIES seem to have
different methods of administration. THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is
democratic. U.L.T. is only a group of amorphous volunteers
actuated by their personal decision to keep the ORIGINAL
TEACHINGS OF THEOSOPHY as written by H.P.Blavatsky and W. Q.
Judge alive and available.

If you study and compare the publishing lists of all the T.
bodies you will see differences. The way U.L.T. is set up, and
individual can make use of its facilities.

If you wish I can give you as an example the little book that the
Adyar Theosophical Publishing House issued under H.P.Blavatsky's
name as PRACTICAL OCCULTISM It is one of the articles she wrote.
If you have a copy then compare it with the same article you have
reprinted by the U.L.T. in OCCULTISM OR RAJA-YOGA. The U.L.T.
is verbatim from H.P.Blavatsky's original article -- remember
proof reading it myself years ago. The ADYAR version has been
heavily edited. Then into that soup a creedal article by a
Brahmin originally printed in Vol. 10 of THEOSOPHIST is
introduced ( not H.P.Blavatsky at all) -- I made a comparison
and have a full description of the discrepancies. I sent this to
the Theosophical Publishing House in Adyar and the H O of the
Indian Section THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in Benares -- but they never
acknowledged it nor did then change their printing.

Another discrepancy list with over 43,000 changes is the reprint
in 1893 of The SECRET DOCTRINE (Vols. I and II) by the
Theosophical Publishing House in London after the original plates
were worn and no longer usable. This is easily checked.

Vol. III of The SECRET DOCTRINE as edited by A. Besant is a hodge
podge of unedited MSS that H.P.Blavatsky had in her drawers at
the time of her death -- it was material intended to go into
LUCIFER, even some MSS held over from THEOSOPHIST.

No, I am not making a case for the continuation of any special
Body. I am indicating the differences. In U.L.T. I don't have
t worry -- the originals are available on a reliable basis
yet=s, I have in many cases proof read and verified them with
the ORIGINALS. -- and I have done the same thing with the 15 (or
so) volumes of BLAVATSKY: COLLECTED WORKS.

The U.L.T. model leaves everyone free to make their own choices,
and free of paying for them. It makes no charges except the cost
of books, and those are the nominal ones to cover the cost of
printing.


Dallas
<<The students of today and tomorrow (who will no doubt be
ourselves, reincarnated) are due a chance to access the original
teachings and thus they are put into rapport with the original
writers and Minds, (as far as possible) without some blurring or
obscure interposition of other ideas and minds' opinions. [The
fact (as instance) that we have over 30 to 50 versions of the
BIBLE today, ought to point to the fact that in the hands of
copyists, interpreters and translators, the original teachings of
Jesus have had a difficult time for accurate survival. Most who
read them rely on their own intuition and power of discovering
the real meaning of that Teacher.>>>


Jerry
OK, Dallas, but when I joined Pasadena, I bought a lot of HPB's
books as
"original versions" according to the publisher's statements (TUP
I believe).
Is TUP lying? Should I purchase new books from ULT?


DTB	Why not contact Eldon and ask him. He has had the
experience of both.

I do not know whether you have the edited or unedited versions
which came out more recently. If you compare your copies with
H.P.Blavatsky's originals you will soon know if they have been
changed. In some cases the changes may be trivial, but in other
cases as I read, the changes make the original MEANING UNCLEAR.

Personally I would rather deal with H.P.Blavatsky's "mistakes"
than with those created by others who have had the temerity to
believe they knew better than she did, and had the audacity to
introduce changes which she did not authorize. Strong language,
but true if it is applicable.


Dallas
<<<< To spend time on "how is it done?" "Is it done fairly?"
and "Can I
test the operation somehow?" detract from the short but valuable
time we
have for actual study of the MEANING of what
H.P.Blavatsky and the Masters taught. It is a matter of
discrimination. Which is more valuable? I would rather not
spend my time answering this kind of query.>>>


Jerry
I don't recall asking such questions anyway. I don't need that
much detail.



Dallas
<<<U.L.T. seeks to make the ideals of universal Theosophy
practical. >>>


Jerry
OK, but so far as I know this only extends to doing nice deeds
and thinking
nice thoughts. I have an orginal copy of B.P. Wadia's Studies in
the Secret
Doctrine, in which he only addresses altruism and ethics - being
nice to
others. As far as I can tell, this is pretty much all there is to
the
Theosophical Path.



DTB	Each one interprets in their own way. But I am not inclined
to making sweeping statements concerning THEOSOPHY.

I find I am constantly learning about its breadth and depth. So
I am cautious about generalizing. I happen to marvel at the way
in which metaphysics is seen as an underlay for ethics and
morals.

The considering of just two items culled from THEOSOPHY make a
great change in the way I look at the world (and universe) we all
live in and the contacts we make::

1.	That we and every least being in the UNIVERSE is an IMMORTAL
INTELLIGENCE . The time element is incomprehensible, but
theoretically, given the time involved, every experience and
every challenge has, or will be, met and gone through by the
"life-unit" (MONAD) on up to the greatest expanse we can imagine
(our Galaxy) or represent. Nature is an inclusive word , used to
cover that WHOLE, in space, time and existence. And

2. the Universal and impartial LAW OF KARMA. As a sensitive
and universal adjuster of "lawful from unlawful" choices,
thoughts, feelings, acts and motives. This impinges equally and
with an invariable precision on all beings, visible or invisible,
inert or active, etc., etc.

Yes Mr. Wadia in his STUDIES IN The SECRET DOCTRINE emphasizes
the moral aspect precisely because that is the one which most
people don't want to recognize. Choices have consequences. The
bold man-- the THINKER accepts those. The fearful man trembling
for his approaching point of death (of the body), seeks to
prolong those emotions that he finds friendly to him as an
emotional being, and in that he centers his whole attention.
Does not this describe most of us?

If we start with the first OBJECT of the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT --
BROTHERHOOD, and really, truly begin to treat all as our
brothers, (not only humans but all beings of whatever kind, from
the "atom," so insignificant, up to the largest of worlds, then
it makes a tremendous difference. Our "personal" sense of
isolation and, the holding of others at arm's length, a kind of
remoteness from others, (territorial imperative !) disappears.
Our involvement deepens, our sense of concern becomes more acute.
We cease "expecting" others to do things for us, and we begin
asking (at least in thought) what we can do for them. And so
on. For some this will appear strange.

I would say for myself that it has made my approach to choosing
particularly cautious.



Dallas
<<<Some believe Karma, for instance, is a limited affair and
relates to the
person or individual in this Manvantara at the most. However,
there may be
said to be a vaster aspect of Kosmic KARMA -- the collective
Karma of a vast mass of beings, of all degrees, and this is
represented in the cyclic alternation of Manvantaras and
Pralayas.>>


Jerry
Yes, and there it is also said that karma can be transcended, and
I wish
Theosophists would talk more about that.


DTB	Have you looked at the APHORISMS ON KARMA ? The so-called
"transcendence" is shown there ( and in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY
(HPB) to be the settling of any debts one owes to others. Then
with a ZERO / ZERO balance the particular item of Karma is
"transcended -- or erased".

I can send you a copy of the APHORISMS ON KARMA ( Judge) or you
can download them through http://www.blavatsky.net


Dallas
<<<To my mind the difference between the mysterious "esoteric"
and the
so-called exoteric is as remote and difficult to identify as the
"Eye
Doctrine," is from the "Heart Doctrine." >>>



Jerry
Basically, the exoteric is what is appears to be going on, while
the
esoteric is what actually is going on.


DTB	EXACTLY -- but that remains to be identified. It is the
inner, and the invisible decision making that each one does for
themselves in their attitude and motives that is "esoteric."


Dallas
<<< How many students and aspirants are willing to take The VOICE
OF THE
SILENCE (HPB) and use it as a basis for the study of esotericism
and occultism, after they have secured such fundamental data as
may be found in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) ? >>>


Jerry
I would hope all. Who doesn't? But once again, the only Path as
such in
either book is compassion and doing good to others.



DTB	that, to me is not limiting, but enlarging and removing walls
of perception. If the small self is a ray of the ONE SELF --
then by this self disciplining process it is made to expand
harmlessly and enables it to contact inform action sites of great
value. But, I believe this can only be achieved by a strict
control of the mind (as a tool) and the directing it with
compassions and harmlessness.


Dallas
<<<Some desire to review if not rewrite history. But history is
irreversible in terms of what actually was chosen as motive,
thought, feeling and finally action.>>


Jerry
Your take on karma and history is admirable, but possibly naive.
I see
history as how we look at the past, and such views are as
changeable as the
future. We may just have to disagree on these two. That's enough
for now, I
think.


DTB	It would be simplified for us if we only could see the
impartial records said to be present in the AKASA. Until we
secure access to those, "History"(as written in one country) will
always remain a matter of someone's opinion. I have had the
opportunity of working in one of our large US Publishing houses
who made books available for primary and secondary schools in
various states. To my surprise the text-book review committees
of EACH STATE insisted that the text books relative to history
(and also Science -- as regards creation and evolution) be
specially written to suit the prejudices of the local reviewers,
even if the texts then distorted actuality. And to my horror
this was done in the name of "doing business." Large amounts of
money were at stake and when I objected, I was told that someone
else in the publishing business would do it, if we did not and we
would lose a customer and many thousands in profits." I was
shocked and moved out of that kind of a situation.

In this life I have had the opportunity of studying as a child,
history as written in European and Asian countries that were
opposed in World War I, and subsequently -- some were colonized,
and were striving for independence.. And while battles and the
causes of battles or economic measures that assured markets, were
in agreement it as to causes, it was clear that the
INTERPRETATIONS -- the placing of a supposed meaning in the
minds of ones' opponents had caused all the trouble.

So the real problem was hypocrisy and the perpetuation of
"justifiable lies."

I try to avoid such situations are they are unfair to all
concerned. And that is one reason that I prefer working through
the U.L.T. I only have to account to my own conscience. And I
try to make that as "fool-proof" as possible by wide reading and
the cross comparison of texts. So what I write on I can say (or
not say) that I have verified.



Thanks Dallas. I appreciate your taking the time.

Jerry S.


Dear Jerry:

we do learn to appreciate each other's points of view. It is
good.

Best wishes,

Dallas

------------------------------------


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