Theos-Talk Archives (July 2001 Message tt00139)

Sorry to but in..but..."Why ? So as not to naturally open the LOWER-NATURE
DOOR " (we are a growing group of students aprox. a year old, we find the
above statement to be odd..would you please explain what you meant...kindest
regards..george
----- Original Message -----
From: "Compiler" <compiler@wisdomworld.org>
To: <theos-l@list.vnet.net>
Cc: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>; <study@blavatsky.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 5:42 AM
Subject: Theos-World KARMA & REINCARNATION and TRUTH & FALSITY MIX


> ..To: Jerry Schueler
> From: John DeSantis (Compiler)
>
> >From your last message to me, in the "Theosophy Study List" forum,
> entitled
>
> ..RE: A United Action - to John DeSantis
> Date: Thursday, 12 July 2001 19:49:13 -0400
>
> Jerry, let me first try to address what you said in this excerpt about
> Karma & Reincarnation:
>
> =====================
> As far as the modern Theosophical Movement is concerned, I have already
> pointed out in my postings several huge pitfalls that I see as likely
> killing the whole movement before the next Messenger has a chance to
> arrive. One of these is the continual (and almost mindless) emphasis on
> exoteric karma and reincarnation that I see perpetuated by all of the
> TSs almost as if they were unaware of any esoteric ideas on these
> subjects to present to an already sceptical and resistant public. I
> sincerely hope that your union of writers will take my warning into
> consideration, together with the loving/concerned spirit in which I
> offer it (I am not so concerned with the health of the TSs so much as I
> am with the health of the TM itself).
>
> Nevertheless, I wish you well and hope it works.
> =====================
>
> My reply for you and everyone to consider is this: I may be mistaken,
> and if I am I hope that you and others will correct me, but as a
> long-time student, I was under the general impression that our
> Theosophical Movement, in general, overall, was instructed by people
> like the Adepts, HPB, and WQJ, to not get too Theosophically-technical
> (using my own words here) when reaching out to the general mass of
> humanity. And that in plain everyday language we should do our best to
> concentrate on the doctrines of Universal Brotherhood, Karma &
> Reincarnation, Cycles, and so on with whatever doctrines and subjects
> that I may have left out here, in order to try and catch the attention
> of the general public who are not in any way familiar with Theosophy.
> And to try to make my point a little more, and even though it may be
> useful and appropriate in a Theosophical student forum like the one you
> do a lot of commenting in (Theosophy Study List), since you spend so
> much time discussing and speculating on highly metaphysical things in
> many ways about monads, logos, and a thousand and one other difficult
> and arcane subjects, using so much of the difficult language too, I for
> one would never want to have an enquirer and newcomer be exposed to this
> stuff in their early stages of running into Theosophy, since all it will
> most likely do, in most cases, is make the person's eyes roll in their
> heads, scare them as something that is way too difficult, if they don't
> immediately think it is hogwash, and have them head for the hills never
> to look back on Theosophy again for a long time to come. As for myself,
> and guided by the suggestions (or straightout instructions, if that be
> the case) of the Adepts, HPB, and WQJ, I'm a firm believer in offering a
> very careful initial "sequence" of various Theosophical ideas and
> subjects, as I do in this compilation of articles that make up the
> Introductory "Setting the Stage" book on my WisdomWorld.org web site:
> http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html -- which book is especially
> geared for newcomers, as well as scholars, investigators, scientists,
> and so on in the mix of the 166 compiled articles. Everyone should keep
> in mind, from a sequential point of view, that the Adepts and HPB gave
> the world the book "Isis Unveiled" eleven years before they presented
> "The Secret Doctrine" book to humanity.
> -------
>
> Now let me try to address what you have said about this particular
> paragraph from my "starting-ideas" proposal entitled "A 'UNITED ACTION'
> FOR OUR THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT":
>
> =====================
> I suggest, for consideration, that all articles are always contemporary,
> fresh, and originally written by our Movement's proposed new group, and
> ONLY referring to, when it does actually refer to past teachers and
> writers, HPB, WQJ, and the Adepts. Why? So as not to naturally open the
> lower-nature door of any one associated with the new "United Team", or
> any organization that our "United Team" members belong to; so that no
> one feels in any way slighted or disturbed or angry or jealous, etc.
> This would be a wise strategic move and method on our part, so that we
> CAN MORE EASILY create an atmosphere where we can work together and
> leave all past problems behind. We would also strategically leave
> behind, in this new publication at least, any problems for our Movement
> that past workers and leaders may have made; by this I mean with any
> distortions of the Teaching, as well as with personality problems,
> backstabbing, jockeying for power and position, and so on.
> =====================
>
> Your response was to both the above excerpt and this excerpt in a
> message of mine to you:
>
> =====================
> Anyway, I hope our worldwide Theosophical Movement can slowly come
> together and rise to the occasion with a skillful "United Team" effort.
> For the sake of humanity, I sure hope you are eventually proven to be
> wrong in thinking that it can't be done -- and who is needed to come
> together, at all times in the future, but only the "wise and
> knowledgeable" from within the Movement, so that they can always work
> TOGETHER, in COLLABORATIVE authoring of all articles? You wouldn't want
> a dummy like me to be part of the "Team" effort that would constantly
> have a dialogue with the scholars and experts in the worlds of science,
> religion, philosophy, education, and social problems, as well as every
> other important subject under the sun, would you? :-) ;-)
> =====================
>
> Jerry, based on the combined above two excerpts, you said:
>
> =====================
> To me, and this is just my own opinion here, I honestly think that the
> ONLY way a united effort will ever work is to eliminate ALL
> contentiousness and to pull in everyone, including even CWL, (who even
> Adyar folks seem to want to ignore) into some kind of acceptance. My own
> personal favorites are Purucker and Long, because their writings have
> helped me the most, and these will not be allowed in your union. I also
> like some of the psychic work of CWL and Kuntz which I would put under
> the spirit of the 3rd Objective. Also, a small book by Emily Seelon (The
> Pilgrim and the Pilgrimage) is one of my favorite Adyar books in my
> library. In summary, there is much good to be found in "neo-Theosophy"
> and to throw it all out is at best shortsighted. When we Theosophists
> are able to truly forgive (not necessarily forget) then we should be
> able to open our doors to everyone. Until then, I will wait.
> =====================
>
> Jerry, please remember that I clearly presented my "United" proposal
> only as "starting-ideas" for everyone to consider, just a starting
> point, with nothing carved in stone; from a person not even qualified to
> be a writer on the team (myself). So before I continue, and based on
> what you said above, the only thing that I want to add to the "A 'UNITED
> ACTION' FOR OUR THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT" message at this time is this
> idea, which I already presented in my recent message entitled "THE ROAD
> TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS": "That maybe, just maybe our
> THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT will only have a chance to come together, and
> write together, if ALL articles are ALWAYS freshly written, and point to
> NO ONE, and to the words of NO ONE; and when they do point to someone,
> that it is only HPB and the ADEPTS -- since these are the people we
> surely all have something in common with, and can rally around."
>
> With that said, my response, offered as food for thought to consider, to
> what you said in the above excerpt, about the "United Team" having an
> ongoing dialogue with the best minds and scholars, and experts, and
> scientists within humanity, and freely quoting from everyone, like
> Beasnt, Tingley, Leadbeater, Purucker, and on and on with all past
> workers and leaders, is this:
>
> But let me first say that I am about to speak only of the general idea
> about Theosophical ideas and concepts being presented by a skilled
> "United Team" who also freely point to people, and quote from them, who
> have spoken and written in their Theosophical careers in the three forms
> of Truth, Falsity and Mistaken notions -- in other words, and used
> simply to make my point, I am only assuming that all of the people you
> mentioned, and others, have presented at various times in their
> Theosophical careers ideas in all three of the ways. Only other students
> much more knowledgeable than me can point out any specific cases.
>
> Its obvious, based on all of our different opinions, different
> Theosophical organizations that we have each come up through, the
> different leaders of them all, the different workers and writers that we
> each have read and have an affinity with, and with all of the past
> problems that were created and experienced from before our time, that we
> must, all together, work real hard to figure out a way to overcome all
> this so that we can have a real chance to create a "United Theosophical
> Movement" -- one that can skillfully dialogue with humanity at the
> highest levels. The past is the past, and the many problems based on
> that past, which we can each probably find things to bolster our many
> opinions, arguments, and feelings, likes and dislikes, in a thousand
> ways, based on the actions and the writings of so many people and
> publications all through the years, what can we begin to do now so that
> in the future we can be effective as a "United Team" that meets humanity
> with the highest caliber of Theosophical truths?
>
> Here are some raw "starting ideas" to consider, presented in no
> particular order; thoughts that I have about our proposed "United Team",
> on the subject of their drawing quotes from all the past and present
> workers and writers in our Movement, other than just speaking of them
> and drawing from them when writing from strictly an historical point of
> view -- when pointing out the good, the bad, the ugly, along with the
> truths, the falsities, and the mistaken notions:
>
> Can our Movement be truly effective if a "United Team" is put together
> that draws from the writings from people who have written things during
> their Theosophical careers that, on a regular basis, come out of a mixed
> bag, so to say -- sometimes true, sometimes mistaken to some degree, and
> sometimes straightout false? For instance: If a united writing team, and
> their web site and publication, IS formed, would it be wise for them to
> ever quote from a person in our past, on something that the particular
> Theosophist they quote from wrote or said that was true, from a
> Theosophical point of view, and no matter how much good stuff he or she
> put out, that inspired and helped many students, if the skilled
> scientists, and scholars, and experts in the world, can point to plenty
> of things that the same Theosophical writer or worker or leader in the
> past wrote or said, that is easily proved to be false or mistaken, even
> among the wisest of Theosophists, from the top down? What would that do
> for our Movement? How would we be ripped apart and embarrassed by the
> experts? Would this be a wise strategy for our United Team? Etc., etc.
>
> With the above food for thought questions and ideas to consider, without
> me having to write them all again, what about if a Theosophical teacher
> or writer or worker, who was loved and respected and read by many
> students, and who said and wrote many wonderful things that were truly
> in line with the teachings, along with, as above, other things that were
> not and can be proven to be distortions, like any of us might do who
> have been more or less serious theosophical students for a while, was
> also exposed as a sexual pervert in some ways, in the eyes of most of
> humanity, and the scholars and experts also pointed out both the unsound
> concepts and ideas along with the character flaws. How would our "United
> Theosophical Team" be able to overcome this in dialoguing with the
> experts in all fields?
>
> What about also featuring, no matter how talented in many ways, the
> writings and teachings from leaders and writers who in the end turned on
> HPB in some way, as well as their putting out a combination of true,
> false and mistaken theosophical concepts? How does our United Team
> overcome the use this would be put to by the skilled scholars and
> experts in science, religions, and philosophy that they are conversing
> with in front of humanity?
>
> What about any of our past leaders and writers who may have presented
> someone to the Theosophical Movement, and to the world, as the next
> Messiah, so to say? What would that do for our "United Team", when their
> critics and opponents latch onto that and use it, after the Team quoted
> some reasonable, good, and even true Theosophical concepts that the
> person or persons in Theosophical history wrote?
>
> If ideas rule the world, and we are interested in putting forth the pure
> and reliable Theosophy presented by HPB and the Adepts, that can stand
> the test and the heat of battle in the "ideas" and "truth" arenas, but
> instead we also put forth the writings and ideas of everyone else, much
> of which maybe cannot take the heat of this battle of ideas, concepts,
> and so on, how can we ever hope to win the day?
>
> I will stop adding more to the above, even though I and probably
> everyone else could continue to add to the above few starting-ideas to
> the basic point I am trying to make.
>
> Jerry, in my heart, I, too, like you and so many others from our
> different organizations, would love to see everyone included, as far as
> who and what the "United Team" would use as ammunition to draw from in
> their task of presenting Theosophical concepts in every possible way in
> all fields. But would it be wise to include the writings from everyone
> in this endeavor -- especially if plenty of what they wrote and said,
> along with the good stuff, maybe couldn't stand the test? Would we have
> a chance to build a "United Team Action" that can win the day, and keep
> winning it, so as to become respected worldwide, no matter what the
> subject being spoken of is?
>
> To try and conclude: The above things are probably only a small fraction
> of the things that our Movement has to deal with in order to figure out
> the best and wisest and smartest way to go. Pleas remember that I only
> offer "starting-ideas", as I say over and over again in my "United Team
> Action" proposals and suggestions and aspirations. Hopefully you and
> many others will add to the many things we have to consider.
>
> Am I dead wrong in thinking that we will have the best chance to include
> everyone on this team that is capable, from all organizations, no matter
> who they read and learned from, because they will want to be associated
> with the team effort, if we strategically, out of wise necessity, only
> stick with the teachings as presented by the Adepts, HPB, and WQJ (or
> just the Adepts and HPB), when our "United Team" does point to the ideas
> and words and writings of others, when not strictly presenting, fresh
> and new, what they composed themselves?
>
> To try and summarize all that is above, let me ask this: Can truth,
> falsity, and mistaken notions, all combined in what each of our many
> past writers have ever presented, if that be the case, ever actually
> have a chance to win the day if this is what our "United Team Action",
> as I have proposed, must draw from, exposing their action to their
> critics and skilled opponents in the world of ideas, in order to satisfy
> each of our lower natures, whenever they are not simply writing fresh
> stuff, which, hopefully, would be most of the time?
>
> To conclude: It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that no matter how
> much great and important work and loving service for humanity, and for
> our Theosophical Movement, any of our fellow workers and leaders in the
> various Theosophical organizations did in their careers, in the past,
> and even in the present, if they have said and written many things
> concerning Theosophical realities, ideas, concepts, and doctrines, which
> are NOT True, but are false and/or mistaken, then it would be wise for
> our proposed "United Team" to NOT point to them or quote from them,
> except when actually pointing our their false and/or mistaken notions in
> front of the whole watching world.
>
> Hopefully you and many others will offer their views for all of us to
> consider.
>
> Fraternally yours in Universal Brotherhood,
>
> John DeSantis
> (Compiler)
> -------
>
> You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here:
>
> Wisdom World web site (Main Page):
> http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html
>
> The Index page of the Introductory, "Setting the Stage" book:
> http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html
>
> The page where "Additional" articles are steadily being added:
> http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html
>
> -------
>
>
>
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