Theos-Talk Archives (July 2001 Message tt00121)

..To: Jerry Schueler
From: John DeSantis (Compiler)

>From your last message to me, in the "Theosophy Study List" forum,
entitled

..RE: A United Action - to John DeSantis
Date: Thursday, 12 July 2001 19:49:13 -0400

Jerry, let me first try to address what you said in this excerpt about
Karma & Reincarnation:

=====================
As far as the modern Theosophical Movement is concerned, I have already
pointed out in my postings several huge pitfalls that I see as likely
killing the whole movement before the next Messenger has a chance to
arrive. One of these is the continual (and almost mindless) emphasis on
exoteric karma and reincarnation that I see perpetuated by all of the
TSs almost as if they were unaware of any esoteric ideas on these
subjects to present to an already sceptical and resistant public. I
sincerely hope that your union of writers will take my warning into
consideration, together with the loving/concerned spirit in which I
offer it (I am not so concerned with the health of the TSs so much as I
am with the health of the TM itself).

Nevertheless, I wish you well and hope it works.
=====================

My reply for you and everyone to consider is this: I may be mistaken,
and if I am I hope that you and others will correct me, but as a
long-time student, I was under the general impression that our
Theosophical Movement, in general, overall, was instructed by people
like the Adepts, HPB, and WQJ, to not get too Theosophically-technical
(using my own words here) when reaching out to the general mass of
humanity. And that in plain everyday language we should do our best to
concentrate on the doctrines of Universal Brotherhood, Karma &
Reincarnation, Cycles, and so on with whatever doctrines and subjects
that I may have left out here, in order to try and catch the attention
of the general public who are not in any way familiar with Theosophy.
And to try to make my point a little more, and even though it may be
useful and appropriate in a Theosophical student forum like the one you
do a lot of commenting in (Theosophy Study List), since you spend so
much time discussing and speculating on highly metaphysical things in
many ways about monads, logos, and a thousand and one other difficult
and arcane subjects, using so much of the difficult language too, I for
one would never want to have an enquirer and newcomer be exposed to this
stuff in their early stages of running into Theosophy, since all it will
most likely do, in most cases, is make the person's eyes roll in their
heads, scare them as something that is way too difficult, if they don't
immediately think it is hogwash, and have them head for the hills never
to look back on Theosophy again for a long time to come. As for myself,
and guided by the suggestions (or straightout instructions, if that be
the case) of the Adepts, HPB, and WQJ, I'm a firm believer in offering a
very careful initial "sequence" of various Theosophical ideas and
subjects, as I do in this compilation of articles that make up the
Introductory "Setting the Stage" book on my WisdomWorld.org web site:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html -- which book is especially
geared for newcomers, as well as scholars, investigators, scientists,
and so on in the mix of the 166 compiled articles. Everyone should keep
in mind, from a sequential point of view, that the Adepts and HPB gave
the world the book "Isis Unveiled" eleven years before they presented
"The Secret Doctrine" book to humanity.
-------

Now let me try to address what you have said about this particular
paragraph from my "starting-ideas" proposal entitled "A 'UNITED ACTION'
FOR OUR THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT":

=====================
I suggest, for consideration, that all articles are always contemporary,
fresh, and originally written by our Movement's proposed new group, and
ONLY referring to, when it does actually refer to past teachers and
writers, HPB, WQJ, and the Adepts. Why? So as not to naturally open the
lower-nature door of any one associated with the new "United Team", or
any organization that our "United Team" members belong to; so that no
one feels in any way slighted or disturbed or angry or jealous, etc.
This would be a wise strategic move and method on our part, so that we
CAN MORE EASILY create an atmosphere where we can work together and
leave all past problems behind. We would also strategically leave
behind, in this new publication at least, any problems for our Movement
that past workers and leaders may have made; by this I mean with any
distortions of the Teaching, as well as with personality problems,
backstabbing, jockeying for power and position, and so on.
=====================

Your response was to both the above excerpt and this excerpt in a
message of mine to you:

=====================
Anyway, I hope our worldwide Theosophical Movement can slowly come
together and rise to the occasion with a skillful "United Team" effort.
For the sake of humanity, I sure hope you are eventually proven to be
wrong in thinking that it can't be done -- and who is needed to come
together, at all times in the future, but only the "wise and
knowledgeable" from within the Movement, so that they can always work
TOGETHER, in COLLABORATIVE authoring of all articles? You wouldn't want
a dummy like me to be part of the "Team" effort that would constantly
have a dialogue with the scholars and experts in the worlds of science,
religion, philosophy, education, and social problems, as well as every
other important subject under the sun, would you? :-) ;-)
=====================

Jerry, based on the combined above two excerpts, you said:

=====================
To me, and this is just my own opinion here, I honestly think that the
ONLY way a united effort will ever work is to eliminate ALL
contentiousness and to pull in everyone, including even CWL, (who even
Adyar folks seem to want to ignore) into some kind of acceptance. My own
personal favorites are Purucker and Long, because their writings have
helped me the most, and these will not be allowed in your union. I also
like some of the psychic work of CWL and Kuntz which I would put under
the spirit of the 3rd Objective. Also, a small book by Emily Seelon (The
Pilgrim and the Pilgrimage) is one of my favorite Adyar books in my
library. In summary, there is much good to be found in "neo-Theosophy"
and to throw it all out is at best shortsighted. When we Theosophists
are able to truly forgive (not necessarily forget) then we should be
able to open our doors to everyone. Until then, I will wait.
=====================

Jerry, please remember that I clearly presented my "United" proposal
only as "starting-ideas" for everyone to consider, just a starting
point, with nothing carved in stone; from a person not even qualified to
be a writer on the team (myself). So before I continue, and based on
what you said above, the only thing that I want to add to the "A 'UNITED
ACTION' FOR OUR THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT" message at this time is this
idea, which I already presented in my recent message entitled "THE ROAD
TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS": "That maybe, just maybe our
THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT will only have a chance to come together, and
write together, if ALL articles are ALWAYS freshly written, and point to
NO ONE, and to the words of NO ONE; and when they do point to someone,
that it is only HPB and the ADEPTS -- since these are the people we
surely all have something in common with, and can rally around."

With that said, my response, offered as food for thought to consider, to
what you said in the above excerpt, about the "United Team" having an
ongoing dialogue with the best minds and scholars, and experts, and
scientists within humanity, and freely quoting from everyone, like
Beasnt, Tingley, Leadbeater, Purucker, and on and on with all past
workers and leaders, is this:

But let me first say that I am about to speak only of the general idea
about Theosophical ideas and concepts being presented by a skilled
"United Team" who also freely point to people, and quote from them, who
have spoken and written in their Theosophical careers in the three forms
of Truth, Falsity and Mistaken notions -- in other words, and used
simply to make my point, I am only assuming that all of the people you
mentioned, and others, have presented at various times in their
Theosophical careers ideas in all three of the ways. Only other students
much more knowledgeable than me can point out any specific cases.

Its obvious, based on all of our different opinions, different
Theosophical organizations that we have each come up through, the
different leaders of them all, the different workers and writers that we
each have read and have an affinity with, and with all of the past
problems that were created and experienced from before our time, that we
must, all together, work real hard to figure out a way to overcome all
this so that we can have a real chance to create a "United Theosophical
Movement" -- one that can skillfully dialogue with humanity at the
highest levels. The past is the past, and the many problems based on
that past, which we can each probably find things to bolster our many
opinions, arguments, and feelings, likes and dislikes, in a thousand
ways, based on the actions and the writings of so many people and
publications all through the years, what can we begin to do now so that
in the future we can be effective as a "United Team" that meets humanity
with the highest caliber of Theosophical truths?

Here are some raw "starting ideas" to consider, presented in no
particular order; thoughts that I have about our proposed "United Team",
on the subject of their drawing quotes from all the past and present
workers and writers in our Movement, other than just speaking of them
and drawing from them when writing from strictly an historical point of
view -- when pointing out the good, the bad, the ugly, along with the
truths, the falsities, and the mistaken notions:

Can our Movement be truly effective if a "United Team" is put together
that draws from the writings from people who have written things during
their Theosophical careers that, on a regular basis, come out of a mixed
bag, so to say -- sometimes true, sometimes mistaken to some degree, and
sometimes straightout false? For instance: If a united writing team, and
their web site and publication, IS formed, would it be wise for them to
ever quote from a person in our past, on something that the particular
Theosophist they quote from wrote or said that was true, from a
Theosophical point of view, and no matter how much good stuff he or she
put out, that inspired and helped many students, if the skilled
scientists, and scholars, and experts in the world, can point to plenty
of things that the same Theosophical writer or worker or leader in the
past wrote or said, that is easily proved to be false or mistaken, even
among the wisest of Theosophists, from the top down? What would that do
for our Movement? How would we be ripped apart and embarrassed by the
experts? Would this be a wise strategy for our United Team? Etc., etc.

With the above food for thought questions and ideas to consider, without
me having to write them all again, what about if a Theosophical teacher
or writer or worker, who was loved and respected and read by many
students, and who said and wrote many wonderful things that were truly
in line with the teachings, along with, as above, other things that were
not and can be proven to be distortions, like any of us might do who
have been more or less serious theosophical students for a while, was
also exposed as a sexual pervert in some ways, in the eyes of most of
humanity, and the scholars and experts also pointed out both the unsound
concepts and ideas along with the character flaws. How would our "United
Theosophical Team" be able to overcome this in dialoguing with the
experts in all fields?

What about also featuring, no matter how talented in many ways, the
writings and teachings from leaders and writers who in the end turned on
HPB in some way, as well as their putting out a combination of true,
false and mistaken theosophical concepts? How does our United Team
overcome the use this would be put to by the skilled scholars and
experts in science, religions, and philosophy that they are conversing
with in front of humanity?

What about any of our past leaders and writers who may have presented
someone to the Theosophical Movement, and to the world, as the next
Messiah, so to say? What would that do for our "United Team", when their
critics and opponents latch onto that and use it, after the Team quoted
some reasonable, good, and even true Theosophical concepts that the
person or persons in Theosophical history wrote?

If ideas rule the world, and we are interested in putting forth the pure
and reliable Theosophy presented by HPB and the Adepts, that can stand
the test and the heat of battle in the "ideas" and "truth" arenas, but
instead we also put forth the writings and ideas of everyone else, much
of which maybe cannot take the heat of this battle of ideas, concepts,
and so on, how can we ever hope to win the day?

I will stop adding more to the above, even though I and probably
everyone else could continue to add to the above few starting-ideas to
the basic point I am trying to make.

Jerry, in my heart, I, too, like you and so many others from our
different organizations, would love to see everyone included, as far as
who and what the "United Team" would use as ammunition to draw from in
their task of presenting Theosophical concepts in every possible way in
all fields. But would it be wise to include the writings from everyone
in this endeavor -- especially if plenty of what they wrote and said,
along with the good stuff, maybe couldn't stand the test? Would we have
a chance to build a "United Team Action" that can win the day, and keep
winning it, so as to become respected worldwide, no matter what the
subject being spoken of is?

To try and conclude: The above things are probably only a small fraction
of the things that our Movement has to deal with in order to figure out
the best and wisest and smartest way to go. Pleas remember that I only
offer "starting-ideas", as I say over and over again in my "United Team
Action" proposals and suggestions and aspirations. Hopefully you and
many others will add to the many things we have to consider.

Am I dead wrong in thinking that we will have the best chance to include
everyone on this team that is capable, from all organizations, no matter
who they read and learned from, because they will want to be associated
with the team effort, if we strategically, out of wise necessity, only
stick with the teachings as presented by the Adepts, HPB, and WQJ (or
just the Adepts and HPB), when our "United Team" does point to the ideas
and words and writings of others, when not strictly presenting, fresh
and new, what they composed themselves?

To try and summarize all that is above, let me ask this: Can truth,
falsity, and mistaken notions, all combined in what each of our many
past writers have ever presented, if that be the case, ever actually
have a chance to win the day if this is what our "United Team Action",
as I have proposed, must draw from, exposing their action to their
critics and skilled opponents in the world of ideas, in order to satisfy
each of our lower natures, whenever they are not simply writing fresh
stuff, which, hopefully, would be most of the time?

To conclude: It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that no matter how
much great and important work and loving service for humanity, and for
our Theosophical Movement, any of our fellow workers and leaders in the
various Theosophical organizations did in their careers, in the past,
and even in the present, if they have said and written many things
concerning Theosophical realities, ideas, concepts, and doctrines, which
are NOT True, but are false and/or mistaken, then it would be wise for
our proposed "United Team" to NOT point to them or quote from them,
except when actually pointing our their false and/or mistaken notions in
front of the whole watching world.

Hopefully you and many others will offer their views for all of us to
consider.

Fraternally yours in Universal Brotherhood,

John DeSantis
(Compiler)
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You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here:

Wisdom World web site (Main Page):
http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html

The Index page of the Introductory, "Setting the Stage" book:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html

The page where "Additional" articles are steadily being added:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html

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