Theos-Talk Archives (March 2001 Message tt00084)

Sunday, March 11, 2001

S.D. and "Matter is Eternal" -- A view of Philosophies

Dear Steve:

There is no question that the ancient records presently still
available to us provide the ground from which you write.

As to SANKHYA philosophy originating with KAPILA, does not
Krishna in the BHAGAVAD GITA )with an acknowledged historical
antiquity of at least over 3,000 years BC) speak of that as a
speculative science in the 2nd chapter of the GITA ?

I would venture to say that every one of the 7 Schools of
philosophy in India antedates any write MSS. The power of
thinking is not a crescendo recently achieved, but apparently it
has a very long history -- stretching back into the night of
time.

At best an Orientalist might venture to say that that the
earliest know MSS might be dated from "such and such" an
antiquity. But who can date an idea or a philosophy?

To my mind there are no "firsts" there. At best we have old
traces to examine.

I think you can trace evidence for all 7 points of view in every
good philosopher's writing and thinking, even when they are
better known for advancing the arguments in favor of a specific
one.

Look at all that H.P.B. wrote, non-selectively, but rather in its
entirety. She employed ideas, methods, reasoning and records
from a whole world of writing and thinking, ancient and modern.
She drew together the scattered evidence (in her day) of material
that now, through her writing, has become more clearly apparent
in co-relationships.

H.P.B. has influenced the world of scholarship and research, even
if the level of acceptable scholarship is still painfully limited
to the physical and the obvious at the brain-intellect level.
Intuition and analogy are still largely distrusted for the reason
that training in THINKING and the pursuit of acquiring a view of
the scope and power of METAPHYSICS Is still lacking.

The concept that the CONSCIOUSNESS of each Individual is singular
and not dispersed is an important one to use and grasp. [ As an
instance: We make decisions and guide our levels when we are
AWAKE. Our DREAMS when asleep fall into memory patterns which
may be remembered or forgotten on awakening. INTUITIONS of great
inventions, music, poetry, and other practical arts and sciences,
are recognized but their attainment (or the results obtained) are
involuntary. The ability to go into TRANCE and then to "CHANNEL"
the thoughts and sentiments and partial histories of the past
doings of others (humans or astral entities, such as the astral
shades of the departed, or the active minds of the depraved --
from the Astral Light -- [ see Judge: THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY,
Chapters 16 and 17]

She showed carefully how the occult and esoteric links brought
all of these together into a single root system: called
variously, but perhaps the term WISDOM-RELIGION applies the best.
If anything Theosophy has the power to unite these disparate
aspects into one whole. Can we find that ?

If one looks at scholarly writing in general, one may notice that
the ability to read within the words and behind the phrases is
conspicuous by its absence. Is everyone so limited by what they
can feel, touch, see, that they are no longer capable of asking:
Why is this written or phrased in this way? Why does it happen
that parallel passages and ideas are to be found replicated in
widely separated systems? Where can I find a wider, a more
universal view with which I can reliably compare what I read now?

Is there a link between systems that seem to bear a
daughter/mother relationship as a new Prophet arises to try to
reform the vagaries of an older system that had become degraded
by interested and venal priesthoods

It would seem from a study of religions and their relationships
that underlying every EXOTERIC creed, there is a basic
philosophy, a true RELIGION, usually this is found to be
presenting all others as well, as IDEAS.

[ Take the example of the many Christian sects which split off
from Roman Catholicism (sister to the Eastern Orthodox Church --
a spit occurred in the Councils of Bishops in the early
enturies -- apparently ); much of Christianity in its formal
religious practices can be shown derived from Paganism, Judaism,
the Egyptian and Greek and Babylonian Mystery schools and
influence, etc.. .

Jesus as a reformer said he came to help the Jews (whose history
shows a number of earlier reforms) He was rejected and lived
and worked for over 80 years says history. But the religious
philosophy regressive links in history (as I see them) are :
Christianity -- Judaism -- Greek Mysteries -- Egyptian
Mysteries -- Chaldees -- Babylonians -- Zoroastrians (Magi) --
Buddhists ( established for ages around the Dead Sea ) --
Hinduism (Brahmanism) and Chinese philosophy. The early
religions of the Mayas, Toltecs, Olmecs, Incas and Aztecs show
remarkable resemblance to the Egyptian Mystery systems -- from a
review of as little as we know of it.]

I think all our contributions are valuable as they all tend to
draw our thinking towards the innate TRUTH of things. You see
some aspects I have missed, and vice/versa.

I have this to add, and that in my opinion, the SECRET DOCTRINE,
ISIS UNVEILED, H.P.B.'s ARTICLES, and specially the VOICE OF THE
SILENCE give us a basis for appreciating other systems. They
force us to realize that wisdom and information is not to be
departmentalized, but rather the inter-connecting links are to be
looked for and compared. Wisdom is in the aggregate LAWS
operating in nature (if we can find them), and not in any narrow
specialty to which our inclinations or curiosity may have
directed us. There is no source of information in our world that
we can afford to overlook, without thereby, limiting our vision
and impairing our balance in regard to other aspects of equal
importance.

Let me slip in some notes below. Did you see my recent posting
on ROUNDS & RACES ?

Most of this information will be fund in Judge -- THE OCEAN OF
THEOSOPHY and in the SECRET DOCTRINE available "on-line" from
BLAVATSKY.NET

Best wishes, as always,

Dallas


==========================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Stubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 9:21 AM
To: sd@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-sd] Re: New study passage: "Matter is eternal"

Jerome Wheeler: "If matter is Eternal and the One
Infinite Universal Mind is also Eternal, are there
then two Eternals? How do you understand this?"

This is a Sankhya idea. According to Kapila,
primordial cosmic matter was inchoate (Avyakta) until
gazed upon by Purusha (the Person).

===================================

DTB	According to the philosophy of evolution this was
simultaneous and not consecutive in time. The UNIVERSAL MONAD is
polarized the moment the Universe, in its reawakening steps from
the non=manifested into the temporal restrictions of a fresh
"Day" of manifestation. From the non-manifested Logos, to the
manifesting Logos, and from thence to the manifested Logos is the
sequence as implied in the Stanzas of Dzyan, (S.D. I p. 27-29)
------------------------------------
In a way this is
reminiscent of Yeats' interpretation of Berkeley,
which as I remember it stated that when you close your
closet door all your dirty underwear disappears into
Eternity. (There were no refrigerators then, or he
would have used a refrigerator door as an analogy.)
Alas, for when you open the door again it is time to
go to the laundry. It is perhaps not a bad thing,
since otherwise we would be paying an extraordinary
sum to be constantly replacing our wardrobes.

It is more likely that Kapila had in mind that
primordial cosmic matter was Avyakta during the Sleep
of the Universe (the Night of Brahma) and that it took
form when the universe awakened. This is a very
profound concept, on which one could profitably
meditate. But it is clear that neither matter
(Prakrti) nor spirit (Purusha) were in his opinion
created. Both were co-existent and co-eternal. This
co-eternality is also a very profound concept. I
challenge my fellow Theosophists to meditate on this
and discover why it would be necessary.

====================================
DTB	Consider the earlier manifestation as it closes down to that
immeasurable SLEEP period named Pralaya.
Forms are dispersed. That series of forms needed for experience
in that early Manvantara are no longer needed in the economy of
nature. All their components (of the forms) are carefully set to
rest (not "destroyed," or non-essed) in a condition that
contrasts with their earlier intelligent and self-governed
activity. The analogy to reincarnation and to daily sleeping and
waking is a powerful one. As above, so below.
Individual Karma is halted until a fresh manifestation re-begins.
Then the conditions and needed forms will be reassembled (as
H.P.B. describes in S.D. Vol. I.)
The SPIRITUAL ENTITY (Monad) of each of the uncountable
life-units of the whole Universe ( or a Solar System, or one of
the Galaxies) passes from activity and growth into passivity,
spiritual meditation and review of the experiences acquired, and
eventually when Universal Karma points to the hour, there is a
re-formation of the necessary vehicles for a fresh MANVANTARA.
The great Cosmocratores and the SEVEN BUILDERS take their places
and assist Nature in her simultaneous work of reawakening the
slumbering Monad/Atoms.

==================================

HPB was influenced greatly by Sankhya philisiphy, and
Purusha and Prakrti can be found hither and yon in the
SD.
===========================================-

DTB	I would rather say that she (and the Mahatmas who
co-authored this) used this, and all the other philosophies, so
as to give us a bird's eye-view of their interrelationship and
meshing. No one part runs the WHOLE. It is a cooperative we are
engaged in. and, we, as human Monad-Minds are trying to find our
"place: in it. Similarly with the tools of thought and logic,
they all have their due and useful place.
NATURE contains EVERYTHING already. The whole of Nature runs
under immutable LAWS of equity, fairness, mercy and compensatory
compulsions. We set Karma into action for our personal selves.
Our motives at the time of making our free-willed choices set
this to work.
The work of our scholars and scientist is to rediscover those
NATURE-EMBEDDED facts, and then to demonstrate their natural
brotherhood of common origin, and their cooperative nature. Each
one of the divergences can be show to parallel other aspects in
other religions and theogonies, and when retraced to the ONE
SOURCE they can be shown to rebecome one. [ HPB in the S D, Vol.
2, speaks of this on pp 636-7. ]
===============================

Incidentally, "primordial cosmic matter" is, I
believe, substance without form.
===============================

DTB	See in the Theos. Glossary : SUDDHA SATTVA, P. 311.
----------------------------------------------------
The "goldness" of
gold was considered by the ancients to be the form or
the soul of gold, whereas its substantial character,
which it shares with every other form of matter, was
what they called the "matter." The gold-ness, or the
quiddity if you will, is not substantial, but the kind
of gold people hoard is substantial. Therefore the
ancients imagined that matter must have another
component in addition to its quiddity which is common
to all matter and which is responsible for its
substantial character. They therefore separated
substance from quiddity in thought experiment. If you
can imagine gold without its gold-ness (hard to do)
then you have Kapila's Avyakta Prakrti. Reducing
ordinary matter to the First Matter and actually
producing Avyakta Prakrti in their laboratories was
one of the preoccupations of the medieval alchemists.

DTB	H.P.B. in the S.D. and elsewhere says that the primordial
substance is unknown and Indescribable. She indicates that MULA
(root)- PRAKRITI (matter/ substance) is the same as MAHA (great)-
BUDDHI (WISDOM of universal experience in forms) ( theos Glos.
& S.D. )

==========================

The eternity of matter was considered a given in every
ancient school of which I am aware, but came to be
denied by the Christians. Photius says that in his
Outlines; Clement of Alexandria defended the eternity
of matter, and yet elsewhere we find he insisted that
the universe was made from nothing.

This reason for this apparent contradiction becomes
clear when we look at the Kabbalah, which was, after
all, the origin of these doctrines. The Kabbalah
recognizes matter as one of the Sephiroth (Binah, I
believe) and insists that it is eternal. Yet the
ultimate wellspring of the Sephiroth is Ain Soph,
which literally means "Nothing." Ignorant preachers,
who knew nothing of the Kabbalah, heard these ideas
and misunderstood them. Considering their profundity,
that is hardly surprising.

SS


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