Theos-Talk Archives (January 2001 Message tt00132)

Tuesday, January 23, 2001

Dear Gerry:

May I insert some observations below? Additionally, I think
this is evolving into a vast argument where details and not
basics are being addressed from our seemingly divergent points of
view.

I also think we do have semantic differences, and apparently you
are not as acquainted with THE SECRET DOCTRINE as I thought you
were. Please excuse if I seem to have been obscure. Usually I
proceed on the basis of "all known information considered." And
of course this would include

Thanks

Dal

=====================

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 12:36 PM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Response to Dallas

>> DTB Whether students of Theosophy are rash enough to
travel (for what reason?) in their "mayavi-rupa" -- if they have
developed
one -- is a matter for their own decision -- as it is for
anyone. <<

I can't image a Theosophist with enough internal
desire and fortitude to TRY such a thing. However,
magicians do this all the time. It is interesting
that Tibetan Buddhism teaches the mayavi-rupa or
pure/impure illusion body is only attained naturally
at a very high level of Bodhisattva-hood. However,
we have the choice of waiting until we are an 8 or
9 stage Bodhisattva or starting such development
now.

==============================


DTB SINCE the term "MAGE" or "MAGICIAN" implies a
full knowledge of the factors involved, only the Magician would
use such a power if it was necessary, others like: "The
Sorcerer's Apprentice" (which certainly is my own stage, as I
look at it) might use such a power at the beginning in imitation
or out of curiosity -- and be totally unprepared for results, or
not know how to stop it. It is for such cases I say what I do.
I don't want to be ever put into a position where I am so
ignorant as to tamper with imponderables I cannot manage -- and
that is caution -- and "fear," if you please.

==============================



<< I imagine that if it is needed, then it is done, but
not for frivolous amusement, surely ? >>

I cannot even guess at what frivolous amusement is (?).
If you mean traveling into the bedrooms of pretty girls
to see them without clothes, then I would agree with
you (Chuck may have tried this though).


=================================

DTB Sounds like non-sense to me -- that would indeed
be a very base desire and totally useless philosophically. If
such "astral travel" might be used for that purpose, then , then
indeed it would be a misuse of power. But then, we have many
kinds of desires and some are far higher than that, of course.

=================================



<< Even experiments in this
kind of travel, to my mind, would require extensive knowledge of
the
adjacent planes: astral,-and its 7 component sub-divisions of
planes which
relate to the other
principles of a human being.<<

No, as a matter of fact, it doesn't require this at
all. In fact, most who travel are not Theosophists
and have no clue about 7 planes etc. In fact, there
are many who say that an intensive study of this
kind of thing would likely influence one's results
(thus Enochian magicians tend to see Aethyrs and
Watchtowers, Qabalaists tend to see Sephiroth, and
only Theosophists would tend to see planes and globes).
In short, we tend to see what we karmically want to
see more often than not, and thus the need is to
purify the subtle body (emotions and thoughts) rather
than to accumulate mental baggage from over-reading.
For my own part, my first visits to the Aethyrs
was fairly in tune with Crowley's view, and some of
my critics thought that I had merely plagiarized him.
I became convinced that my study of his work did
influence or color my experiences, and I have had to
work hard to dis-identify myself with the descriptions
of others. My work in the planes and globes is on-going
in the same way. The subjectivity of the inner planes
makes it difficult to see what is really there as
opposed to one's own karmic projections.


==============================================

DTB I REFER TO THE DIFFERENCE between KAMA and BUDDHI
in one's development. The Motive is all important.. Is it
selfish or selfless?

Crowley, (so far as I have been able to determine, certainly
did not exhibit anything rare and wonderful of the kind that
might inspire one to the highest spiritual attainments possible.
>From what I have learned of them, they desired to elevate
themselves as individuals to levels of selfishness and pleasure
that appeared to carry them (at their control) to great heights
of personal rapture, have little to do with the urge to assist
one's fellows, or to acquire virtues as a practical means to
spiritual excellence, and a practical example for all to emulate
and honor.

=========================================



<<Theosophy says that each principle is 7-fold and is in each of
those
divisions related to the other principles. As I read it this is
the meaning
of the 49 "fires" which would be 7 x 7 on a PLANE surface, and if
we look at
the human as a "volume/space, then it is 49 x 7 = 343. But so
far I have
found no description of such a multitude.>>

I find these kind of mental gymnastics to be fun, but
they have little to do with astral traveling. Did you
know that the Angels gave John Dee 49 Keys or Calls,
which are said to be the gates of entry into the inner
planes and sub-planes? They are written in the Enochian
language. Like HPB, I find this kind of thing interesting
for purposes of gematria rather than any literal value.

=======================

DTB GEMATRIA and TEMURAH apparently relate to the
transmission of secret information among the early Rabbis and the
Kabalists and the history of those are confused because of the
many breaks and biases introduced historically in them. No, this
is not mathematical or mental gymnastics. It relates , as I see
it, more to the securing of a carefully described condition of
spiritual improvement than any self-gratification.

I found in the S.D. and several of H.P.B.'s articles a more
detailed account of the use of those two procedures:
S.D. I 78, 90fn; 347 392-4; II 39-40, 85, 438fn, 473-4,
509, 539 - 545, 551, 574, 603,
H.P.B. THE KABALAH AND THE KABALISTS, "LUCIFER" May, 189
H.P.B. TETRAGRAMMATON, "theosophist," Nov., 1887

============================


<<...This, to me opens a view of the potentials which a little
knowledge of
other planes begins to give us to consider. It gives rise (in
me) to a
careful consideration of the surrounding volume/space of our
environment,
and the (generally unknown) entities that live in those adjacent
planes and
conditions -- of which, on the whole very little is given.<<

In my Enochian Physics, I stated that consciousness can
be considered as a fifth-dimension (space-time being
the first four). If we look at the four dimensions of
space-time as a 3D box, then density or the "cosmic
planes of manifestation" are another whole dimensional
direction.

========================================

DTB H.P.B. indicates certain limits in the
"dimensions" we can access (S.D. I 251-2 (will multiply with
mans' faculties), 257-8, S.D. II 591 (6 of all bodies),

====================================================

Going from the physical, through the astral, [ WHY LEAVE OUT THE
"PSYCHIC ?" DTB]
mental, causal, and spiritual, is a whole other dimensional
direction of travel for us. We do so during sleep
automatically, and at death unconsciously.

======================================

DTB According to Theosophy the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that
is MAN -- THE REAL EGO, (Buddhi-Manas) passes out of the psychic
plane which is first visited -- or is first traversed -- on the
way to the Spiritual Plane. [ see H.P.B., TRANSACTIONS OF THE
BLAVATSKY LODGE, pp 66-77; CWB, Vol. 10, pp. 251-261]

After physical death the plane of Kama-Loca is first visited and
traversed, then follows Devachan -- the spiritual plane where the
virtues of life are meditated on and stored in the Akasic "body"
or "Plane" of the MONAD. They form part of the permanent
Character of the Individual -- the Eternal Pilgrim.
Reference: THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY -- H.P.B.

===================================

But we can
also travel this dimension consciously in meditation.
I think that Theosophists fear it mainly because they
do not understand how simple and natural such a
movement really is (tell me if I am wrong).

==========================================

DTB FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN is not a bad way to start
off. However for anyone to travel forward, the parameters of the
area and the rules of deportment and of investigation need to be
carefully described. At least I have found those present in
Theosophy. The ideals of virtue appeal to me more than any
amount of pleasure or rapture that would be personally and
selfishly "enjoyed." They give a basis from which our forward
living can be oriented -- perhaps one could call it an "IDEAL ?"

==============================================




<< A knowledge of the laws that pertain to those other
"worlds," or "planes" would include may things that physical and
empirical
knowledge of the physical world has no explanation for yet.<<

In a way, but karma still works and love, as well
as virtually all other so-called universal laws.
Science has yet a long way to go. It still hasn't
figured out consciousness, and quantum tunneling
through brain synapses is not going to get us there
(see Evan Harris Walker's The Physics of Consciousness:
Quantum Minds and the Meaning of Life, Perseus, 2000).


<<Again, motive comes into play. What is
the purpose of acquiring extraordinary skills? This is of
course, for anyone, to answer to themselves.<<

The only legitimate motive is to attain knowledge
for the purpose of helping others. If the motive
is not self-less then there is a big problem; I
have no argument with Blavatsky on this.

==============

DTB AGREED
==============



<<Theosophy does state that if one desires to surpass (pierce
through) the
veil that KAMA --the plane of passions and desires-- throws as a
kind of
envelope over the SPIRITUAL and CAUSAL planes of Nature and
ourselves, we
have to become master of our desire nature and impersonalize it.
So long as
a personal or selfish desire remains, we cannot penetrate to the
spiritual
plane where the "causal" determinants are to be found. <<

Well, we can "penetrate" but the view will surely
be a distorted one. Purification of the astral body
(our so-called magic mirror) is essential to see
correctly.

=================================

DTB This purification implies to me a deliberate
attempt to always adopt the highest motives -- which are to me
impersonal, GENEROUS and universal - the word "brotherhood" seem
to include all those.

====================================


<< To me, if one looks at the basis of the many kinds of "yogic,"
and
"spiritual" courses (and books) offered , one is able to detect
self-interest in them -- and that closes the "door" to approach
the
SPIRITUAL, impersonal and causal side that we may DESIRE to find.
That is
my own view.<<

And my view as well. Its a buyer beware world out there.


<< DTB I can't help what Science thinks. As one who
has dealt with scientific material as an editor for many years, I
can say
that the idea is not foreign to those scientists who are at the
growing tip
of experiment and discovery. Why do we build these enormous
cyclotrons,
bevatrons, accelerators, etc unless the impact of high speed
electro-magnetic components of the molecules and atoms are not
themselves
electro-magnetic entities?<<

These sub-atomic particles that you are talking about
are, in fact, material and yes they are associated with
electro-magnetic forces and fields. In fact, modern
field theory says that fields are the reality and that
particles and waves are playthings within those fields.
But this is still all matter and part and parcel of
the physical plane. Electro-magnetic forces are not
found on the inner planes in the same way.

========================

DTB OKAY SO FAR I'M WITH YOU

=======================


<< DTB Prana, Theosophically and in Sanskrit is
literally :breath" or "wind." In the definition of the 7
principles in Man (see KEY TO THEOSOPHY) it is used to mean the
vitality
(JIVA) of the Universe (and it is positive, negative and
neutral).>>

OK, although I thought that jiva means mind-entity [ JIV-ATMA
CERTAINLY IS THAT - DTB ] a living being rather than vitality. In
meditation, we
can actually separate out the prana from the air during
an inhalation. When done properly, breathing itself
ceases for a time. Prana can be mentally directed to
enter the sushumna nadi or central channel, and this
is said to innaugerate the beginning of emlightenment

===========================

DTB I DON'T DOUBT THIS MAY BE ONE WAY OF DESCRIBING
SUCH A PROCESS, BUT WHEN THAT IS DONE, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE AND
WHAT COMES NEXT? How does one take precautions for the
preservation of the health of the physical body and the many
monads we are responsible for there?


=============================


<<Chinese and Indian medicine use the "meridians" and these are
the links in
the "various" bodies which are enlivened by vitality (or PRANA)
>>

So far as I know, prana and the chi "meridians" are only
located in the etheric body, the lowest and most gross
of our subtle bodies. [ THEOSOPHICALLY: HPB might say: "ASTRAL
BODY" ]
...... if either meditation or "Kundalini yoga" have any
direct effect on PRANA/JIVA I could not say, but I would hazard a
logical
guess and say they would.<<

Your guess is correct. Prana enters our body with
each inhalation of air, and can be separated and
mentally directed to various points of the subtle
channels and centers. I can honestly say that I
have done this myself to a small degree and can
attest to the accuracy of the Vajrayana teachings.

=================================

DTB Theosophy states that an "ocean" of JIVA
surrounds everything -- both universal and individual Karma seem
to rule these -- the "currents of LIFE in SPACE."

We draw (not by physical breath alone) a portion of that JIVA
(which is karmically selective) into us -- by various
"gateways" -- and when it enters our sphere it is called "PRANA"
or "breath."

==================================


<< Again it all depends on the
operator's motive. His choices and will. Again we are dealing
with the KAMA
principle as motive or reason why we do something.<<

Agreed. But for each and every one of us, there will
come a time when mental pictures are insufficient, and
the desire for direct experience will well up from within,
and the motive would seem to be an unconscious desire
to know what the heck is really going on.

==================================

DTB Since the MIND is "US," and WE employ it to
control all functions on the Lower planes/spheres, the "direct
experience" is (TO MY UNDERSTANDING) going on all the time.
Perhaps we (from our brain-limited Lower-Manas position when we
are "awake") are unaware of it, and its constant registry.

Then, through the use of the WILL we seem ( as Lower-Manas) to
select certain aspects for consideration. At that time the
motive is carefully selected. Again, the motive of the Lower
Manas at that time is to be considered. If there is anything to
be "puirified" it is the lowest aspects of "Lower Manas
(Kama-Manas) . Is that what may be said ?

===========================================


<<DTB I am not clear about understanding this, as in meditation
to me there
is an attempt to draw together the information we have secured
and an
attempt to harmonize it with data earlier received.>>

There are several kinds of meditation. The one you are
describing is what Tzongkapa would call analytical
meditation. There is also a kind of insight meditation
in which one clears away all thoughts and images and
looks directly at one's own naked mind (this is a
major part of what is called mahamudra).


=================================


DTB MAHAMUDRA means literally "the Great Image." --
one might take it for an illusion or a projection from some
prototype onto the screen provided for it (in matter) at some
very refined level.

However the act of meditating may be defined, it is essentially
(to me), an attempt to secure the more profound Wisdom involved
in some event or fact of life and nature.
The continual and universal impact of any action or thought on
the rest of nature (starting with the samskaras that form our
vehicles) causes a Karmic effect to start. It will be either to
our advantage or will retard our personal progress. The Highest
aspect of the Lower Manas is that which through the Sutratma
thread is in contact with its counter-part Buddhi-Manas at all
times. This contact is the one that (as I understand it) causes
Karma to begin for us.
If the MAHAMUDRA chosen by us, is of a Spiritual nature, then it
will on analysis, show universality, impersonality and charity
(or brotherliness) as its main characteristics. So, to me the
question has always been: Am I helping and harmonizing with
NATURE, or, am I obstructing it for some reason. If so, then
what is that "reason?" Does it pass muster before the judgment
board of impartiality, impersonality and fair consideration for
the rights and needs of others? If I do not consider them as my
brothers, then, may I not actively be harming them?

==========================================

>> DTB I disagree with this as what I find in
Theosophical literature, first defines what ETERNITY and a MONAD
is, along
with the concept of the undying and impartite SPIRIT that
encompasses the
entire Universe.<<

Do you disagree with the quote I gave from the SD? Or
of my interpretation of it?

==========================


DTB interpretation -- I don't see it. Not clear to
me the derivation.


================================


<<The MONAD is said to be an indissoluble linkage of
SPIRIT/matter.>>


Blavatsky clearly says [ WHERE ?] that each atma-buddhi monad
will
be "absorbed" (her word) at the end of the manvantara.
How can it, or anything that can change, be said to be
"indissoluble?"


==========================

DTB Absorbed but not dissolved, non non-essed -- to
me this is a very important difference, as elsewhere in an
article: ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADVAITA she makes it
clear that each Monad/Ego re-emerges (as a continuing entity)
after Pralaya to resume its pilgrimage. Nature conserves and
does not needlessly destroy. [ Article is in H.P.B. ARTICLES
III p. 265 (ULT Edition) [ Theosophist, January 1886 -- BCW
Vol. 7, p. 50-2 ] If H.P.B. said that then where may I find the
statement?
S.D. I 247, ii 167 is the breath (or a RAY) of the ABSOLUTE
S.D. I 668	Descent and renascent of MONADS
S.D. I 174-5fn	Does not progress or develop, Lower skandhas to
attach themselves to it -- plank of salvation.
S.D. II 199	Remains on a Higher Plane
S.D. I 630fn	Every cell is a Monad
S.D. II 180-1	Becomes free of matter at the end of the 7th Round
S.D. I 613	"gods", monads and atoms - compound units during
manifestation
S.D. I 631	spontaneously self-active
S.D. II 109-10	Monad and the URGE to evolution
S.D. I 177; II 79, 154, 242 SPIRITUAL
S.D. I 178-9	gradual individualization of the Monads
S.D. I 135, 266 II 57fn emerge after slumber during
PARANIRVANA
S.D. I 265	Monad an individual Dhyan Chohan
S.D. I 631, 107	Indivisible Mathematical Point -- a Universe in
Itself
S.D. I 553	Intelligent noumenoi of the Monad
S.D. I 132	also called JIVATMA
S.D. II 57fn	needs MANAS for DEVACHAN
S.D. II 319fn	on the past Karma of the Monad
S.D. II 111	Pre-existent in the world of emanations
S.D. I 21	re-emergence of the Monads
S.D. I 632 II 186 , 311 universal mirrors -- LOGOI
S.D. II 94	Waiting Human Monads and Nirmanakayas
S.D. I 181	Part of Triple Evolution
S.D. I 176 178-9 619 Monadic Essence
S.D. I 174-5 612-3	Monadic Host

====================================

<<Now if that is difficult to swallow, what can I say?>>

I think that you are saying a great deal of Theosophical
fluff (I am tempted to say flapdoodle, but am trying to
mind my manners :-) ). Atma-budhhi is relatively permanent
in the sense that it lasts only for a manvantara, which
Blavatsly clearly defines as one outbreath and one
inbreath of Brahman, and thus her "eternity" is not very eternal.
Only her
Divine Monad, which is far beyond atma,
is truly eternal in the sense that it lasts over many
manvantaras, which is to say for one maha-manvantara. But
after that, it too is absorbed. This too is hard for
some to swallow, but it is my interpretation of what
Blavatsky taught us, and it is in relative accord with
Tibetan Buddhism as well.

==============================

DTB FLUFF or FLAPDOODLE -- only the logic of a
proposition supports it, and its coherence with others. The
"Lower-Mind" of each of us responds mainly to the emotional links
already set up. They are personal to us. They may also
therefore serve to confuse us, as illusions might, --so, as I see
it, only that which is universal and impersonal will wipe away
those personal illusions. A unified base being restored, there
will not be further difficulty.

Why would the MONAD (Atma-Buddhi) be only "relatively eternal"
and exist for only a Manvantara? What happens to all the work
and energy put into its development? The onset of rest-Pralaya
does not mean the entire UNIVERSE is resting, but only a portion
of it -- the IMMENSITY OF SPACE is unlimited, but we think in
limited terms so we think Pralaya is infinite -- but Pralaya is
relative only to Manvantara, and the INDEFINABLE "ABSOLUTENESS"
transcends both -- in that sense they are both limited and
illusionary (a paradox to the Lower-Mind). Then again there is
(as I see it) in each Monad a connection with the ABSOLUTE and it
is not dissolvable because of that. One might say, and this is
probably quite inexact, that each of us acts as a
"listening-post, as a "Witness," for the ABSOLUTENESS (if it
ever needs any), in our world of limits and shifting illusions.
At least that is how I understand it. ( see S.D. references
above)


DTB H.P.B. says Sankaracharya was closely associated
with the Buddha and was born about 80 or a 100 years after his
death, (S.D. I xliv, 86, 162, 271, II 637; T. Glossary , p
307, 289, 361) and he came to reform the Brahmin community.
Certainly the Smartava Brahmins in India seem to be the most free
intellectually and philosophically -- among those I have met and
held discussions with.

=================================



<<As far as I can see and reason, there are very sound bases for
this to be
conceived of and used as a basis for philosophical and logical
thought. >>

Let me use Tzongkapa as a good example of a logician.
He taught that anything with inherent existence cannot
change over time. Anything that changes over time lacks
inherent existence, according to Tzongkapa and logic.
I cannot find any logic or reason to a position that
insists the atma-buddhi matures over time via its
incarnations, and yet somehow is "eternal" and has
inherent existence. None whatsoever. I see such a
position as being dogmatic and illogical, but hey,
maybe its me...

==================================

DTB If the ABSOLUTE stands as the SOURCE for both
SPIRIT AND MATTER, then in the interaction of spirit and matter
there are vast ranges of difference. The whole panorama of
evolution may be said to lie as evidence of this. SOMETHING (I
think it is experience is always added to events that occur
within the illusory limits of Time, Space and Motion ) We seem
to be pitting the eternal against the impression of the
transitory. Both have a reality, since the events of thought,
feeling and action are impressed on the imperishable AKASA . (Is
that another imperishable infinitude?) So as I look at these
things we need to keep a careful watch over the many events and
causes as well as the impressions and results of our actions and
words. Does it not all come under the heading of Karma and the
question as to whether our choice motives were altruistic or
selfish?
I agree that the MONAD per se does not "mature" but the
aggregation of Monads of lesser experience which collect around
it and provide the intelligence of the lower vehicles, the
highest being the human LOWER-MANAS do change in their capacity
to learn and perceive. Something of an intelligent nature does
the improving -- or am I wrong?
The problem I have with translations of Tsonkhapa and
Shankaracharya and other great Oriental teachings is the
interpretation that the translators slip in (sometimes
unconsciously) in doing their work

==========================================
[I mangled this sorry ....]
.... st, ignores out of respect for her readers who would never
have understood it.

==========================

DTB EMPTINESS does not really answer anything. SPACE
is filled with Monads (atoms, sub-atoms, fields, and many kinds
of actions -- the combination giving us our present situation and
condition. We labor in this field seeking to understand its
existence, relations to us, karma of the past we engaged in
starting, potential of the several futures we can devise so as to
make things balanced and easy for our companions and ourselves.
Finally the question of the equilibrium of the Universe emerges
and I do not think we have the necessary words to express the
metaphysical realities we have been given to think about.

As I look on what I have learned, I see the following
progression:

0 or ABSOLUTENESS or NO-THING

1 or THE IDEA OF MANIFESTATION -- THE UNIVERSAL MIND --
THE UNMANIFESTED LOGOS -- A UNIVERSAL PLAN on which ( as a Kind
of karmic framework) all earlier manifestations (beings of all
grades of intelligence) reassemble prepared to awaken and resume
their individual progress.


=============== MANIFESTATION OCCURS =================


1 The MANIFESTING LOGOS -- VERBUM -- WORD CENTRAL SPIRITUAL
SUN -- acts as a universal "focal" point (multiple foci,
simultaneously--The circle of Pascal: Centre everywhere,
circumference nowhere).for the re-creation of the physical
material worlds on various levels.

2 The MANIFESTED LOGOS then begins its work (S.D. I 570 -
575) 7 great divisions of Dhyan Chohans, Dhyani Buddhas,
Buddhas, etc...constitute the host of the BUILDERS -- the
COSMOCRATORES . As "Builders" (perfected minds, once men like
us), they are commissioned to supervise -- as they are the head
of a host of similar beings, each assigned by Karma to a
particular area of work -- to harmonize and balance the beginning
of a new Manvantaric effort. Out of Chaos, Kosmos emerges.

2 SPIRIT and MATTER emerge and the MONADS reform and
emerge. The KARMA of the past causes them to emerge at the point
where they last were working and experiencing Karma.

3 MIND as a "ray" of the UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE (or call it
MIND or CONSCIOUSNESS) enters into a linkage with the MONAD and
serves to attach them again to the personal construct of

4. KAMA or the principles of desires and passions, needs and
wants, vices and virtues, which largely dominate our lives'
progress.

5 JIVA / PRANA or the life currents in space which are a
part of the general life-force and a portion of which become
karmically "ours" again.

6 The individual or personal ASTRAL BODY as the
electro-magnetic lattice-work whereon the living Monads ( atoms,
molecules, cells, etc...attracted to all beings by the laws of
attraction and repulsions (Karma) is formed.

7 The actual (physical phenomena/existence --to us)
physical molecules, atoms, and other portions of the minute world
of Monads and monadic forces, combine to give us and other beings
tangible bodies of the kind of matter we live in.

At least that is the Theosophical "model" which H.P.B. offers us
to consider in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY and in the S.D., and a number
of her articles.

On may of course disagree with the enumeration of the planes,
zones, appellations, but what seems to me to be important is the
relationship of the various functions and their harmony.

============================================


<<No this is not an insidious attempt to make of Theosophy a
religion at all, Theosophy has always existed as a historical
record of
research, and constantly invites the deepest probing of its
findings..<<

Please tell me why. Why the invitation, when its
ears are completely closed to any new ideas, even
when those ideas do not conflict with what has gone
before. I do believe your statement here is
disingenuous at best. It seems to me that your
invitation to probing is only to come to agreement,
not to change or add anything. Right?

================================

DTB I do not mean "stasis" at all, but a careful
consideration of all that is offered in relation to the
fundamentals to be considered when THEOSOPHY was set down. If
some alteration is to be added, or some part to be subtracted,
then there has to be adequate reasons for that. So while I
listen and read (as far as I am concerned) I am checking fresh
ideas and presentations with what is already known. Take as a
yard-stick what is said in S.D. I 272-299. At least that is how
I approach things.

==========================================

If we can
accept the research findings given out to date to be
the end-all of Truth, then why probe? Why not just
read and study the literature? Personally, Dallas,
I did some probing on my own, and have seen a few
shortfalls, errors of omission as it were. What
do I do now?


>>DTB I am little concerned with the labeling of my trend of
thinking and logic. My reasoning starts with the TOTAL
INTELLIGENCE of the UNIVERSE that periodically manifests in
and orderly way.>>

I could be wrong, but I suspect that "the TOTAL
INTELLIGENCE of the UNIVERSE" is not something that
can be subject to human reasoning.

=================================

DTB That might be true, and yet our INTELLIGENCE, and
probing must arise from that Universal base which is
particularized in us? There has to be a possibility of potential
error. But when we strike a barrier of illogic, we can always
return to the basics and the source? There is in our Universe a
double center -- a pair of views, a bifocal vision. There is in
each on us An Independence of stance and conduct. Where does
this come from unless it is directly connected with the level of
FIRST ABSTRACTION -- call it the ABSOLUTE.

I imagine much time will always be spent on doing that kind of
study, but in no case can any claim to authority be entertained.
All "authority" is inward to us.
The expression " The Universe grows I." Would imply to me that
the relationship of the SPIRITUAL SAGE is oneness with the
TOTAL -- or the ABSOLUTENESS -- but from our point of view and
without many limitations, we cannot conceive of any mental
merging -- even when we do that all the time. It escapes us, as
does the idea of a sensitivity inherent in Nature which notes
every change in our motives and makes our Karma out of that. I
am reminded of the old song: 'There's no hiding place down
there."


=====================================


<<DTB Well I would disagree that KARMA is undefinable.>>

I would suggest to you that every Theosophist has her
own definition. It is perfectly definable to ourself
by ourself, but any consensus is unlikely.

=========================

DTB QUITE TRUE we each employ our own definitions
according to the level of our understanding -- and there may be
gaps in that. That is why we check with each other, isn't it?
The "Text books" offer the descriptions and findings of our
predecessors. We in turn study and verify their current
validity, no?

===========================================


<<That is certainly a difficulty, because the whole of the
evidence that I
see, points to its continuous, uniform and universal action -- we
could not
be here unless we received its support and continued cooperative
support.<<

Define "we" who are here, and explain where here is.
I see this world as like a long dream, and I have
suspicions that I can wake up from it any time I
really want to, and that all of this is part of my
own karma. The Zen teacher, Alan Watts called the ego
a social fiction, because society generates the need
for personal identities that don't really exist. I
tend to agree with him, so my view of "universal"
karma tends to be a relative one.


>>DTB If you grant to Karma causation and repeated causation,
you have
described its action for everyone <<

Not so. Science agrees with the law of causation, but
not with karma. Why not? Because karma is not time
related, and karmic effects are said to come upon us
at any time after a cause, even if that cause were in
part lives. There is no logical reason for causes
to find their effect years or even lifetimes afterwards.
In fact, many who dislike karma suggest that such
behavior is worthless as a learning tool, because if
the effect comes too long after its cause, the logical
relationship is missed and the lesson goes unlearned.
Children and pets are all taught by the use of
consequences coming as soon as possible, and modern psychology
knows that
when parents inflict punishment
long after its causal event the child develops mental
illnesses. Karma does NOT function in the same way as
the scientific law of causation, of a chain of cause
followed by effect and is psychologically a poor
learning tool if we are, indeed, here to learn lessons.

======================================

DTB	Karma as I understand it is composed of the impressions we
have made on the samskaras -- Monads also -- they do not die or
disappear. The balance of justice in nature may not be fully
apparent to us, but that does not make it go away. If Karma is
not understood, if "unrelated and untraceable causes for
accidents" are inherent in the skandhas, if they return to us
eventually, they bring with them the impression we made on them.
Even after lives. Their cycles and our meld again -- we then are
given a chance to see how we affected them, because as they meld
into our "vehicles" and bodies the distortion, whatever it was
returns to affect us. Our response to that will either set the
matter at rest, or will start some fresh karma going. Of course
if we do not know about the skandhas being the carriers of our
Karma the logic of delay escapes us, and we are deluged with a
sense of injustice.

In the KEY TO THEOSOPHY Mme. Blavatsky takes care to deal with
what is called there "unmerited" Karma
[ see KEY pp: 35 129 133 160-2 also S.D. II 303-04 ]

================================================


>>In a way it is one of the ineradicable components
of NATURE (UNIVERSE). It is action (Rajas as one of the gunas)
and the
other two are SATTVA (SPIRITUAL EXCELLENCE AND UNITY) and Tamas
(Inertia)
which is the tendency to remain in status quo.<<

It is indeed action. Its counter is being.


<<If all three are balanced by the EGO WHICH IS SEATED IN THE
HEARTS OF ALL
BEINGS. We have progress and wisdom developed in those "Eternal
Pilgrims
(the Monads)...>>

The ego cannot balance such. Do you know of any ego
who has done this? First of all, the ego as a thing
doesn't even exist conventionally let along absolutely.
We have aggregates or skandhas, and depending on these
we posit an ego, but such a thing as an ego has no
real existence at all. And I have already talked about
"eternal pilgrims" which are not eternal at all.


=====================================

DTB	What about the Buddha? Or an Avatara? [ see KEY p. 33,
68, 78, 81, 93, 95 (Logos in man), 99-100,-131, and there is
more there -- where H.P.B. describes the "Ego."]

=========================================

I think that I would never be able to agree to your
view of karma. But, maybe its just me.

-------------------------------------------

DTB	Yes there is a great deal to cover, isn't it? But after
time so spent, one does get a better view o the universe we live
in and are a part of. It was always encouraging to me to feel
the integrity of all this.
Best wishes as always,

Dallas
--------------

Jerry S.





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